Steel Challenge - How Often Do You Shoot Your Classification Times?

[Hoops]

I was an avid golfer until my back forced me to give it up.  Golf handicap methods have changed over the years and has a number of factors like slope, course rating, etc.  A scaled down version without getting lost in the mathimatical weeds is:  Best ten of twenty 18-hole scores, less course rating times 96% of the differential.  This is a rolling calculation that changes the more rounds you play.  According to the USGA, an average golfer who plays regularly will only shoot his/her handicap 1 in every 4 or 5 rounds.  My experience was in the 1 to 5 range.

 

Unlike golf, which is scored by the sum of 18 holes, SCSA classifications are developed on a stage-by-stage basis.  Shoot a lot of matches and trim time where you can within the match total.  When I made Master class last year in PCCO I did it during an absolutely horrible match.  I just eeked out enough time in one stage to nudge me over from A to M.

 

I shoot 2 to 3 Level 1 SCSA matches per month.  One of the matches is all 8 stages.  After each match I use the SCSA Calculator to post my scores for the day to see how my total match time scored vs. my classification.  

 

I have found that I shoot my overall classification about 1 in 6 matches as I have struggled with my back (had back surgery last Thursday to clean out L4/L5).  Prior to that when I was shooting fairly well (for me), I would say I shot my overall classification (total match score) about 1 in 4 matches.

 

I am curious how this compares to how you folks score each total match vs. your classification.

 

Thanks,  Hoops

 

 

[apoc4lypse]

In the last four matches, on 4 out of 7 guns I was able to shoot to my classification.  But since these were club level matches I approach them mainly as opportunities to improve a bad stage and bring up my classification, as opposed to playing conservatively to try for lowest overall. So if I already have a decently high score in a stage, I'll push as fast as I can to beat it - that more often results in horribad dumpster-fire performances that bring down my overall score for that match.

 

For example, on my last match (all 8 stages) overall I shot RFPO at 88.3% and RFPI at 79.9%; I am M in both, but I was able to boost my classification to GM in RFPI (Pendulum was the only stage I improved, which of course had to be the last stage of the day, and moved me from 80% to 90% for that stage) and got my RFPO classification to 93.6% from 89.7% (bumped four stages which I shot at 94.7% average).

 

Generally come match day I lose about 10% in classification compared to the times I post during practices.

Edited April 20, 2021 by apoc4lypse

[Hoops]

Thanks for the detailed feedback.    Lot of good information.  
 

Your last paragraph re: match vs practice times is spot on.  I’m going to record my next practice sessions and compare to match scores.  I’m interested now what my percentage variance is.  Solo practice is hard to duplicate the feeling of a match.  
 

 

 

 

[lazytrbar]

Me and my son were talking about this at Worlds.  When your classification is made up of the best 8 stages over the last two years, stringing that kind of run across all 8 into a single match is very daunting. 

So, shooting to my classification has always been my goal at a higher tier match... shoot to my classification on the whole.  If I can do that and maybe improve a single stage score - that's a great match for me.  A major caveat however is right after moving up.  Going from A to M for example, suddenly you've created a much harder goal - but hopefully, that comes along after shooting an A in any given match is no longer that big of a challenge.  I for one, like the classification system, it sets good intermediate goals other than just clock times.

[Hoops]

Lazytrbar.....I’m at 86% so I can relate to the A to M challenge of shooting my classification.

 

I noticed your reference to best 8 stages over last 2 years.  I am not aware of a 2 year cycle.  Is this noted somewhere in SCSA rules?

 

thanks

[nso123]

I generally shoot within 5-7% of my classification time.  On a bad day I might be 10-12% off. 

[lazytrbar]

5 hours ago, Hoops said:

Lazytrbar.....I’m at 86% so I can relate to the A to M challenge of shooting my classification.

 

I noticed your reference to best 8 stages over last 2 years.  I am not aware of a 2 year cycle.  Is this noted somewhere in SCSA rules?

 

thanks

This is from classification scoring page on scsa.org.  Note number 6.

 

Although similar to the USPSA classification system in concept, the Steel Challenge classification system is independent of the USPSA classification system and has its own policies, as follows:

1. Only stages that bear "SC" numbers (SC-101, SC-102, etc.) are used for classification.
2. A minimum of four stages per division are required for classification.
3. Stages will not be included in the classification calculation until the activity fee for that match has been paid by the club hosting the match.
4. If you have shot a stage more than once, your best stage time will count.
5. A stage time is the aggregate time for the stage from a match (total of the best 4 of 5, or 3 of 4, times for the stage in a match).
6. Only stages shot in the current or previous two calendar years are used for classification.
   • All classifiers are included in the initial classification run on July 4, 2016, without regard to the two calendar year limit. This was done so that competitors who had a high score from a match more than two calendar years ago, and before this classification system was released, would get the classification those scores earned.
7. Your classification percentage can go down, however, once you earn a classification (A, B, etc.) it will not go down.
8. Stages that have been assigned a default of 30 seconds per string (120 seconds on a 5 string stage, 90 on a 4 string stage) are considered DNFs and are not included in your classification calculation.
9. Your classification percentage is calculated as follows:
   • Your total time for all classifier stages that you shot is added up
   • The total "peak times" for the stages you shot is added up
   • Your percentage is defined as total_peak_time/total_stage_time
   • Your percentage is mapped to a classification
10. USPSA headquarters cannot process manual corrections to scores. If a score or division is incorrect, contact the match director and request corrected scores be uploaded. If a score cannot be correct, USPSA staff can mark it "invalid" (not to be used in classification)
11. Classifications are calculated early Wednesday AM on a weekly basis. This time was chosen to minimize the chances of a classification changing during a match

[Hoops]

14 hours ago, lazytrbar said:

This is from classification scoring page on scsa.org.  Note number 6.

 

Although similar to the USPSA classification system in concept, the Steel Challenge classification system is independent of the USPSA classification system and has its own policies, as follows:

1. Only stages that bear "SC" numbers (SC-101, SC-102, etc.) are used for classification.
2. A minimum of four stages per division are required for classification.
3. Stages will not be included in the classification calculation until the activity fee for that match has been paid by the club hosting the match.
4. If you have shot a stage more than once, your best stage time will count.
5. A stage time is the aggregate time for the stage from a match (total of the best 4 of 5, or 3 of 4, times for the stage in a match).
6. Only stages shot in the current or previous two calendar years are used for classification.
   • All classifiers are included in the initial classification run on July 4, 2016, without regard to the two calendar year limit. This was done so that competitors who had a high score from a match more than two calendar years ago, and before this classification system was released, would get the classification those scores earned.
7. Your classification percentage can go down, however, once you earn a classification (A, B, etc.) it will not go down.
8. Stages that have been assigned a default of 30 seconds per string (120 seconds on a 5 string stage, 90 on a 4 string stage) are considered DNFs and are not included in your classification calculation.
9. Your classification percentage is calculated as follows:
   • Your total time for all classifier stages that you shot is added up
   • The total "peak times" for the stages you shot is added up
   • Your percentage is defined as total_peak_time/total_stage_time
   • Your percentage is mapped to a classification
10. USPSA headquarters cannot process manual corrections to scores. If a score or division is incorrect, contact the match director and request corrected scores be uploaded. If a score cannot be correct, USPSA staff can mark it "invalid" (not to be used in classification)
11. Classifications are calculated early Wednesday AM on a weekly basis. This time was chosen to minimize the chances of a classification changing during a match

 

Lazytrbar,

 

I looked for these eleven points and could not find them in SCSA.  Can you point me to the section?

 

Thanks,

 

[apoc4lypse]

On the classification page, click the button that says learn more about our classification system.

[Hoops]

9 minutes ago, apoc4lypse said:

On the classification page, click the button that says learn more about our classification system.

Got it.   

 

Between Item 6 (two years) and Item 7.....class never going down, I am not clear on exactly how Item 6 would effect me.

 

Thanks for pointing me to the pull down button.

 

 

 

[apoc4lypse]

The one gripe I have about the classification system is that it tops out at 100%.  I would really like to easily see the actual % of the top 20 shooters without having to dig up their USPSA# from Practiscore.  

[Thomas H]

33 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Got it.   

 

Between Item 6 (two years) and Item 7.....class never going down, I am not clear on exactly how Item 6 would effect me.

 

Thanks for pointing me to the pull down button.

 

 

 

 

Your classification won't lower---but your classification _percentage_ might.  Especially if you haven't shot a particular division in awhile---if your best on a particular stage occurred more than two years ago, that score will disappear and your best _from the last two years_ will show up instead---which means your percentage will decrease.

 

For example, I used to have a 92.xx% in SS, but right now I have an 88.xx%, because I haven't really shot my SS gun hardly at all in the last two years.  (Spending most of my centerfire time in CO.)  Even if it drops under 85%, I'll still be classified M, but that percentage can still go down.  (Several current ISR GMs have percentages under 95%, for this very reason.)

 

About the only real difference it makes is that if you've been away for awhile, coming back and trying to get your classification higher means you'll probably need to manage higher personal peak times on more stages than when you stopped shooting that division, since your previous actual best times aren't being used any more on all stages.

[Hoops]

2 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

Your classification won't lower---but your classification _percentage_ might.  Especially if you haven't shot a particular division in awhile---if your best on a particular stage occurred more than two years ago, that score will disappear and your best _from the last two years_ will show up instead---which means your percentage will decrease.

 

For example, I used to have a 92.xx% in SS, but right now I have an 88.xx%, because I haven't really shot my SS gun hardly at all in the last two years.  (Spending most of my centerfire time in CO.)  Even if it drops under 85%, I'll still be classified M, but that percentage can still go down.  (Several current ISR GMs have percentages under 95%, for this very reason.)

 

About the only real difference it makes is that if you've been away for awhile, coming back and trying to get your classification higher means you'll probably need to manage higher personal peak times on more stages than when you stopped shooting that division, since your previous actual best times aren't being used any more on all stages.

Thanks for laying that out.  

 

In a way this goes back to my initial post............how often are classifications actually shot. 

 

I look at recent matches I have shot and use the SCSA calculator to develop realistic match times so I can get a good idea of where my actual percentage average really is.  If, after a few matches, I have not shot a stage or stages at my best time(s) posted, I will increase the time(s) in the calculator box to get my current trend and current percentage.  As you laid out, this will evolve in time from the 2 year cycle noted in SCSA but I like to see the information in real time cycles.

 

At 86% M class or the bottom end of the class, I will have to be spot on in July when I shoot Area 4 in Texas.  My only goal at this match is to shoot my class which means I have to get my back recovered from recent surgery and start frequent practicing and shooting matches by June 1.

[Sigarmsp226]

Thomas - If I may ask a question in a simplified form for my understanding based on your information above -

 

Once you are classified as an "A" shooter in a specific category/discipline (like SS) you will always be classified as an "A" shooter in that specific category/discipline (SS) unless you progress up to M or GM based on better times?

 

Thanks 

Mark  

[mreed911]

48 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Thomas - If I may ask a question in a simplified form for my understanding based on your information above -

 

Once you are classified as an "A" shooter in a specific category/discipline (like SS) you will always be classified as an "A" shooter in that specific category/discipline (SS) unless you progress up to M or GM based on better times?

 

Yes.

[apoc4lypse]

So I shot four stages on a brand new division and got GM.  If I shoot the remaining four stages and tank them all, I still keep my GM, right?

[Gregg K]

1 hour ago, apoc4lypse said:

So I shot four stages on a brand new division and got GM.  If I shoot the remaining four stages and tank them all, I still keep my GM, right?

Yep, you could have GM by your name along with 79%, ouch!

[Sigarmsp226]

Ok guys - Take me one step further in this learning opportunity please. 
 

Question 1 - Lets say I am currently a “B” in a specific discipline and beside my ranking it says 92%. Does this mean that I am in the 92 percentile of all “B” ranked shooters for that specific discipline or does this mean that based on the times established by USPSA for that discipline at level “B” my time equates to 92% of the of the 100% time range for that “B” division?
 

Question 2 - When that percentage exceeds 100% does that mean I will be bumped up from a “B” ranking to a “A” ranking for that specific discipline?

 

Question 3 - Having learned that once I am a “B” I cannot go back to a “C” ranked shooter for that discipline if a shooter could go down in their ranking what would that percentage number have to reflect, a negative 1%?
 

Thanks for helping me understand what the percentages mean....Mark

[nso123]

1 hour ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Ok guys - Take me one step further in this learning opportunity please. 
 

Question 1 - Lets say I am currently a “B” in a specific discipline and beside my ranking it says 92%. Does this mean that I am in the 92 percentile of all “B” ranked shooters for that specific discipline or does this mean that based on the times established by USPSA for that discipline at level “B” my time equates to 92% of the of the 100% time range for that “B” division?
 

Question 2 - When that percentage exceeds 100% does that mean I will be bumped up from a “B” ranking to a “A” ranking for that specific discipline?

 

Question 3 - Having learned that once I am a “B” I cannot go back to a “C” ranked shooter for that discipline if a shooter could go down in their ranking what would that percentage number have to reflect, a negative 1%?
 

Thanks for helping me understand what the percentages mean....Mark

If you have 92% you should be M class. The 92 is the percentage of the current peak times for that division. The SCSA classification doesn’t show a percentage beyond 100%, though there are several people well beyond 100. The Match Tracker app shows your overall percentage, even beyond 100.  About the only way to know where you stand in a particular class and division is if you are on the top 20 list. I do think it would be nice if we could see overall rankings. 

[AR_James]

On 4/21/2021 at 3:29 PM, apoc4lypse said:

The one gripe I have about the classification system is that it tops out at 100%.  I would really like to easily see the actual % of the top 20 shooters without having to dig up their USPSA# from Practiscore.  

 

Wouldn't that be nice.  They have already done the math to rank them.  Why not post the actual numbers?  Some of them are considerably faster than the peak times.  

[jrdoran]

If you are really curious you can do it shooter by shooter by using their uspsa #.   

 

Go here for the WSSC results:   https://practiscore.com/results/html/d15ba750-b43d-4c0b-9ce3-f8687272d6bc?page=matchCombined

Then goto SCSA  for their classification  ( example:  Kunkel )  https://scsa.org/classification/TY108355

 

While it shows 100% at the summary you can scroll down and calculate it yourself    ( i.e. RFRO 68.0 / 51.82 =  131% )  

BY THE WAY, what amazed me about Kunkel as I looked across his divisions is that the vast majority of his classification stages were at large & major matches.  He can perform under pressure.  They were no mom & pop local matches Level 1.    Pretty cool stuff. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by jrdoran
typo

[Hoops]

10 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Ok guys - Take me one step further in this learning opportunity please. 
 

Question 1 - Lets say I am currently a “B” in a specific discipline and beside my ranking it says 92%. Does this mean that I am in the 92 percentile of all “B” ranked shooters for that specific discipline or does this mean that based on the times established by USPSA for that discipline at level “B” my time equates to 92% of the of the 100% time range for that “B” division?
 

Question 2 - When that percentage exceeds 100% does that mean I will be bumped up from a “B” ranking to a “A” ranking for that specific discipline?

 

Question 3 - Having learned that once I am a “B” I cannot go back to a “C” ranked shooter for that discipline if a shooter could go down in their ranking what would that percentage number have to reflect, a negative 1%?
 

Thanks for helping me understand what the percentages mean....Mark

Are you looking at or relating your comments to the USPSA system? 

 

Steel Challenge or SCSA, is straight forward.  All stages are classifiers.  If you have 92% scoring shown by SCSA, you will be Master Class........and remain at Master Class.  If your future shooting were to decline.......say down to 79%, your classification will remain at M class.   This situation would relate to the topic of this post......shooting within your classifcation.

 

 

 

[Thomas H]

17 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Thomas - If I may ask a question in a simplified form for my understanding based on your information above -

 

Once you are classified as an "A" shooter in a specific category/discipline (like SS) you will always be classified as an "A" shooter in that specific category/discipline (SS) unless you progress up to M or GM based on better times?

 

Thanks 

Mark  

 

People have already answered a series of questions, but since I was asked directly... 

 

Note:  These answers are for the SCSA classification process, NOT the USPSA classification process, which sometimes is different.

 

If you attain a particular classification, you will not ever go down from that classification, unless you specifically petition SCSA to let you move down for some reason.  Even if your classification percentage drops to something that would normally only support a lower classification, your particular classification will not go down.  It can only go up.

 

Whenever the classification update is run, your classification percentage determines if you move up to a higher classification.  If, at some point in time, you have shot at least 4 stages in a particular division and your classification percentage is 92%, then you will be M-class, and you will NOT go down from that class, even if (later) you shoot the other four stages and absolutely TANK them due to gun problems or something.  Once you are classified (for example, as M-class), even if your percentage drops sharply, you will still be in that class..

 

"Lets say I am currently a “B” in a specific discipline and beside my ranking it says 92%. Does this mean that I am in the 92 percentile of all “B” ranked shooters for that specific discipline or does this mean that based on the times established by USPSA for that discipline at level “B” my time equates to 92% of the of the 100% time range for that “B” division?"

You wouldn't be a B-class AND also have a 92%.  The percentage determines your classification (unless your percentage has gone down, as said before).  That percentage is  calculated compared to the peak times for the stages you have shot.  It is not relative to your classification ("92% of B-class") or anything like that---your percentage is compared to the 100% GM peak times used for classifications.

 

To all folks trying to understand how classifications work in Steel Challenge, the easiest way to understand it is to log into SteelChallenge.com, go to your Classification Record, and click on the "Learn More About Our Classification System" button right there at the top.  It does a good job of describing how the system works, how updates happen, and so on.

 

 

 

 

[euxx]

 

On 4/21/2021 at 4:29 PM, apoc4lypse said:

The one gripe I have about the classification system is that it tops out at 100%.  I would really like to easily see the actual % of the top 20 shooters without having to dig up their USPSA# from Practiscore.  

 

Take a look at the PractiScore Competitor app.

It will spare you from all the digging. It also shows the above-100%s and even more stuff you can't see anywhere else.

 

      

 

 

[Sigarmsp226]

Thomas and everyone - Thanks for these responses.  I appreciate you helping me understand this at the simplest level.  

 

Thomas - Thanks for your additional detail just above - I get it now that you took the time to explain it the way you did. 

 

Unless I missed something the way I understand it now is that SCSA has specific percentage ranges for each class and gun (GM, M, A, B, C) and this percentage range determines that persons class ranking for that specific discipline.  The higher a person's percentage based on the qualifier times listed on the SCSA site for that person for that discipline - they higher class they will be ranked for that specific discipline.    

 

Thanks Again 

Mark