matteekay Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 53 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said: Correct I think that's a fair approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 24 minutes ago, matteekay said: I think that's a fair approach. The only way to achieve fairness is to apply the rules correctly and consistently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 23 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: the shot that passed through T2 and hit T1 is not scored, if it can not be determined what hole that is on T1 then a reshoot must be ordered. This. Treated the same as an unrestored target. If there's 3 holes in the target, you know shooter only shot at it twice, and you can't tell which might be a shoot through from the hard cover, then how do you know any of them are even a shoot through? The shot into hard cover on other target might not have gone through and hit this target and instead this target just wasn't properly taped or piece of tape fell off. As said in 9.1.4, if there's extra hits and you can't accurately determine the score then it's a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Southpaw said: This. Treated the same as an unrestored target. If there's 3 holes in the target, you know shooter only shot at it twice, and you can't tell which might be a shoot through from the hard cover, then how do you know any of them are even a shoot through? The shot into hard cover on other target might not have gone through and hit this target and instead this target just wasn't properly taped or piece of tape fell off. As said in 9.1.4, if there's extra hits and you can't accurately determine the score then it's a reshoot. This isn't an unrestored target. That's not the scenario posed by @matteekay so 9.1.4 doesn't apply. It's a two part question 1. Did one of the three holes come from a shoot through? This is often very easy to answer. If yes, go to #2 If no, best two score. 2. Can you determine exactly which of the three holes came from a shoot through. This one is not always easy to answer. If yes, paste it and ignore it. If no, best two score. Edited February 12, 2021 by SGT_Schultz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 On 2/10/2021 at 6:41 PM, SGT_Schultz said: I can't find the rule that supports that re-shoot. Doesn't mean there isn't one, just that I can't find it after looking. Can you throw us a citation? I would have to go with 4.6.1 in this case the barrier (hard cover) has failed to stop the bullet. I can see this possibly as a bit of a stretch but if you need a rule to use to get a accurate score then use what you have. Because you can't find a specific rule to order the reshoot does not then mean you can use a hit that the rules specifically forbids. I too don't see a specific rule that says if x then y for this specific scenario but every other scenario that is covered is basically that if you cant score it correctly then reshoot, this also follows the mantra that is repeated throughout every RO class I have been to, that is scores must be accurate or the shooter must reshoot, yes reshoots suck but accurate scores are worth it. If you prefer not to run into the grey areas of the rules then do not score the target and call for the RM to score it, their job is specifically to rule in these grey areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 On 2/11/2021 at 7:33 PM, SGT_Schultz said: This isn't an unrestored target. That's not the scenario posed by @matteekay so 9.1.4 doesn't apply. It's a two part question 1. Did one of the three holes come from a shoot through? This is often very easy to answer. If yes, go to #2 If no, best two score. 2. Can you determine exactly which of the three holes came from a shoot through. This one is not always easy to answer. If yes, paste it and ignore it. If no, best two score. What rule you are using to override 9.1.6.1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: What rule you are using to override 9.1.6.1? It's not being overriden. In mattekay's example the RO knows one of the three shots came through hard cover. IF he can determine which of the three was it, that one gets ignored during scoring. 9.1.6.1 is satisfied. If he can't determine which of the three was it, best two score. This situation doesn't fit any rule that requires a reshoot so a reshoot can't be ordered out of thin air. I'd be curious what NROI says and how they would justify the decision. Edited February 15, 2021 by SGT_Schultz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 10 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said: I'd be curious what NROI says and how they would justify the decision. If it's popular in this forum, it will probably be a poll in a month or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said: It's not being overriden. In mattekay's example the RO knows one of the three shots came through hard cover. IF he can determine which of the three was it, that one gets ignored during scoring. 9.1.6.1 is satisfied. If he can't determine which of the three was it, best two score because benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. This situation doesn't fit any rule that requires a reshoot so a reshoot can't be ordered out of thin air. where does it say doubt goes to the shooter? that is not a rule. so if I have your position correctly you believe because there is not a specific rule that says a shoot through hit that cant be figured out is a reshoot you should use several rules that don't exist to over ride one that clearly does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 3 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: where does it say doubt goes to the shooter? that is not a rule. so if I have your position correctly you believe because there is not a specific rule that says a shoot through hit that cant be figured out is a reshoot you should use several rules that don't exist to over ride one that clearly does? You'll notice that I corrected myself. I haven't cited any rules that don't exist. I'm also not stretching existing rules beyond their meaning to suit my preconcieved judgement. I've said, and I stand by it, that there isn't a rule that supports a reshoot in this particular situation. I challenged you to come up with a rule that directly supports a reshoot in this particular situation and you came up short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Has this ever happened? First off, weak RM and MD who did not see the shoot through Secondly, it is usually very easy to see which hit went through hard cover on a cardboard target as Bullets travel in a straight line. Perhaps the reason the rule does not exist is because of how unrealistic the scenario being discussed is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said: You'll notice that I corrected myself. I haven't cited any rules that don't exist. I'm also not stretching existing rules beyond their meaning to suit my preconcieved judgement. I've said, and I stand by it, that there isn't a rule that supports a reshoot in this particular situation. I challenged you to come up with a rule that directly supports a reshoot in this particular situation and you came up short. In the finding a rule, I have sighted 4.6.1 that would allow me to order a reshoot for REF, the hard cover did in fact fail to stop the bullet, and now we have a problem scoring the stage. What rule are you sighting to allow recording the possibly incorrect score? Edited February 16, 2021 by MikeBurgess spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Seems like an interesting conversation in theory. in practice (working 5 or 6 nationals and another 6+ area matches and hundreds of locals), i've never yet seen a situation where i knew one of the shots was a shoot-through but I couldn't determine which one. But I'm also pretty diligent about examining and fixing any holes or disturbances in hard-cover. I have seen situations where RO's were less diligent where it couldn't be determined for sure that a hit passed through hardcover because the hardcover was not repaired, and there were multiple holes, and none of them lined up well enough to be certain where the bullet went. In those cases, if you can't prove the shot went through hardcover, I don't see how you can do anything else but score the hit. Really this discussion shouldn't be about reshoots, but about designing, building and maintaining a stage so that you can tell whether or not a shot has passed through hardcover, and to reduce the likelihood of it doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, motosapiens said: ...Really this discussion shouldn't be about reshoots, but about designing, building and maintaining a stage so that you can tell whether or not a shot has passed through hardcover, and to reduce the likelihood of it doing so. Amen to this. From the original description the stage had a shoot-through, as constructed, and somebody probably missed it. That made the stage (probably) illegal, and there are fixes for that, including correcting it and (possibly) having previous competitors re-shoot it to dumping the stage. Both would be inconvenient, but this is how we learn, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 To clarify, stages *should* be built to prevent this sort of thing and the better course designers/RO's spend a significant amount of time ensuring it can't happen... but that doesn't means it won't happen. It seems like it would be an easy thing to address in the rulebook, too - one sentence out of about a million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 closed since the infantile members can't play nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts