Rule 4.1.4

[jstagn]

Could someone please clarify this rule for me? Thanks 

[PatJones]

What exactly is your question?

[BillChunn]

4.1.4 Targets used in a course of fire may be partially or wholly hidden through the use of hard or soft cover:
4.1.4.1 Cover provided to hide all or a portion of a target will be considered hard cover. When possible, hard cover should not be simulated but constructed using impenetrable materials (see Rule 2.1.3). Whole cardboard targets must not be used solely as hard cover.
4.1.4.2 Cover provided merely to obscure targets is considered soft cover. Shots which have passed through soft cover and which strike a scoring target will score. Shots that have passed through soft cover before hitting a no-shoot will be penalized. All scoring zones on targets hidden by soft cover must be left wholly intact. Targets obscured by soft cover must either be visible through the soft cover or a portion of the affected target(s) must be visible from around or over the soft cover.

 

If you setup a swinger and you do not want it shot until it is activated, you place hard cover in front of it.  A metal plate or a plastic barrel so a round cannot go through it and be scored on the un-activated swinging target.  Hard cover can be placed almost anywhere on the stage as long as it's a safe distance from the competitor as described in 2.1.3 and that's enforced by 10.5.17.  It is usually painted black and hits on it should be repainted for each shooter (Level 2) and it's considered appropriate in Level 1 matches to paint it between squads.  On steel hard cover, it usually makes a nice "Boiiing" sound as the round strikes, bringing a smile to everyone's face except the actual competitor who took the shot.....

 

If you place a canvas or material covering that blocks a portion of the target from being seen, that's soft cover and the target can be engaged by shooting through the material.  One of the most common setups is sack cloth strung on a rope in front of targets where the heads are visible above the material.  The portion that reads "All scoring zones on targets hidden by soft cover must be left wholly intact. " means you cannot paint black hardcover on targets that are hidden behind the soft cover material.  The down side to soft cover is if you don't replace it during the match once it is "shot up" then the later squads just shoot where the great big hole in the center is located, striking the "A" zone of the covered target(s).

 

BC

Edited December 17, 2020 by BillChunn

[jstagn]

Thanks Bill, my confusion comes from the wording, hide and obscure. At the matches (level 1), lots of blue barrels are used. Some at the end of a wall, some in front of poppers, some in front of swingers. Never saw paint or pasters used to cover holes or scrapes. So are any of these barrels soft cover? Wsb does not specify. Thanks 

[broadside72]

23 minutes ago, jstagn said:

Thanks Bill, my confusion comes from the wording, hide and obscure. At the matches (level 1), lots of blue barrels are used. Some at the end of a wall, some in front of poppers, some in front of swingers. Never saw paint or pasters used to cover holes or scrapes. So are any of these barrels soft cover? Wsb does not specify. Thanks 

 

They are only softcover is specified in the WSB. Technically they should be getting painted after each shooter if they get hit

[Sarge]

7 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

They are only softcover is specified in the WSB. Technically they should be getting painted after each shooter if they get hit

BUT, we have a ton of seasoned CRO’s around here. We point these rules out the morning of a local. The option is either paint them so new hits can be identified or the MD has to make them soft cover and change WSB etc. The decision is almost always to paint them

[broadside72]

32 minutes ago, Sarge said:

BUT, we have a ton of seasoned CRO’s around here. We point these rules out the morning of a local. The option is either paint them so new hits can be identified or the MD has to make them soft cover and change WSB etc. The decision is almost always to paint them

 

Not disagreeing at all. the other thing about barrels that goes along with this is how to score barrel hits

[jstagn]

Thanks to all who replied. A ricochet off a barrel, not a shoot thru, gets scored no matter where it lands?

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, jstagn said:

Thanks to all who replied. A ricochet off a barrel, not a shoot thru, gets scored no matter where it lands?

Yes. Must be an in and out holes in barrels in order for hit to not count.

[BillChunn]

13 hours ago, jstagn said:

Thanks to all who replied. A ricochet off a barrel, not a shoot thru, gets scored no matter where it lands?

Even if it strikes a No Shoot....

 

Painting the barrel between shooters takes very little time (and paint) as only the area that was struck is repainted or repaired.  When a certain RM here in Michigan runs a stage, he uses black duct tape.  Places the roll on top of the barrel for easy access. 

 

This makes scoring so much easier, specifically when two successive competitors hit the barrel.  Once glances off and hits a target and should be scored.  The second goes in and out of the barrel, hits a target  and should not be scored.  The RO cannot tell the difference if the first one was not repainted or repaired and did not see the glance mark or the in and out holes when they were created be each competitor.  For a Level 1 it might not be a big deal but for L2 & L3 it will be.  The CRO (or the designated RO) is responsible to verify that the stage is ready for the next competitor before the "Make Ready" command.  That includes the painted / repaired hardcover along with all the activators, poppers, plates, scoring targets and No Shoots.  This is part of competitive equity described in 2.3.7.  The stage should be the same for every shooter.

 

BC

[matteekay]

I have a related question. I'm going to present it as a scenario for ease of explanation.

 

T1 is obscured by T2, a partial target that has painted black hardcover. The shooter fires one shot that passes wholly through T2's hardcover into T1, then moves and fires two more shots into T1. The hits on T1 are 1A, 1C, and 1D, and it's not possible to discern which shot travelled through T2's hardcover into T1.

 

Given 9.1.5.1, how should T1 be scored? I'm sure this is in the rulebook somewhere but I can't get the correct term to find it when searching.

[MikeBurgess]

6 minutes ago, matteekay said:

I have a related question. I'm going to present it as a scenario for ease of explanation.

 

T1 is obscured by T2, a partial target that has painted black hardcover. The shooter fires one shot that passes wholly through T2's hardcover into T1, then moves and fires two more shots into T1. The hits on T1 are 1A, 1C, and 1D, and it's not possible to discern which shot travelled through T2's hardcover into T1.

 

Given 9.1.5.1, how should T1 be scored? I'm sure this is in the rulebook somewhere but I can't get the correct term to find it when searching.

the shot that passed through T2 and hit T1 is not scored, if it can not be determined what hole that is on T1 then a reshoot must be ordered.

 

Now for the fun part, just because a target has 3 holes of the same caliber in it does not mean it can not be scored accurately, did you or your ARO see the hits on the target as they were fired?  inspect the holes is one of them different than the others? if you stand where the shooter engaged T2 can you line up the hole in that target with one of the holes in T1? if you look backwards through the holes in T1 can you line one of them up with the hole in T2? most of the time you will find that only one of the holes lines up in a way that makes it possible for it to be the shoot through. Exhaust your investigation options first to be sure you are actually not able to accurately score the target before issuing a reshoot.

[matteekay]

5 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

the shot that passed through T2 and hit T1 is not scored, if it can not be determined what hole that is on T1 then a reshoot must be ordered.

 

Now for the fun part, just because a target has 3 holes of the same caliber in it does not mean it can not be scored accurately, did you or your ARO see the hits on the target as they were fired?  inspect the holes is one of them different than the others? if you stand where the shooter engaged T2 can you line up the hole in that target with one of the holes in T1? if you look backwards through the holes in T1 can you line one of them up with the hole in T2? most of the time you will find that only one of the holes lines up in a way that makes it possible for it to be the shoot through. Exhaust your investigation options first to be sure you are actually not able to accurately score the target before issuing a reshoot.

 

I suspected that might be the case given the rules set around unrestored targets - I guess it's just one of those scenarios that isn't explicitly called out but can be inferred based on the other written rules.

 

And all of your determination methods make sense. This is also a situation where looking for a grease ring is probably valid.

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

I have a related question. I'm going to present it as a scenario for ease of explanation.

 

T1 is obscured by T2, a partial target that has painted black hardcover. The shooter fires one shot that passes wholly through T2's hardcover into T1, then moves and fires two more shots into T1. The hits on T1 are 1A, 1C, and 1D, and it's not possible to discern which shot travelled through T2's hardcover into T1.

 

Given 9.1.5.1, how should T1 be scored? I'm sure this is in the rulebook somewhere but I can't get the correct term to find it when searching.

1A, 1C.

You said the hits on T2 passed through the hard-cover portion, so they in effect passed through. . .nothing. Best 2 hits score.

[matteekay]

10 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

1A, 1C.

You said the hits on T2 passed through the hard-cover portion, so they in effect passed through. . .nothing. Best 2 hits score.

 

That doesn't sound right.

 

9.1.6.1

If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover and continues on to strike the scoring area of a cardboard target, that shot(s) will not count for score or penalty as the case may be.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

the shot that passed through T2 and hit T1 is not scored, if it can not be determined what hole that is on T1 then a reshoot must be ordered.

 

 

I can't find the rule that supports that re-shoot.

 

Doesn't mean there isn't one, just that I can't find it after looking.  Can you throw us a citation?

[matteekay]

8 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I can't find the rule that supports that re-shoot.

 

Doesn't mean there isn't one, just that I can't find it after looking.  Can you throw us a citation?

 

The closest I can find is:

 

9.1.3

Prematurely Patched Targets – If a target is prematurely patched or taped, which prevents a Range Official from determining the actual score, the Range Officer must order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire.

 

and

 

9.1.4

Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the target for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.

 

~

 

That's what I meant about us needing to infer the rule in this case. The spirit of the rules certainly seem to say "Score the competitor if you can reasonably do so, order a reshoot if you can't" but this specific instance is not covered anywhere I can find.

[SGT_Schultz]

58 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

The closest I can find is:

 

9.1.3

Prematurely Patched Targets – If a target is prematurely patched or taped, which prevents a Range Official from determining the actual score, the Range Officer must order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire.

 

and

 

9.1.4

Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the target for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.

 

~

 

That's what I meant about us needing to infer the rule in this case. The spirit of the rules certainly seem to say "Score the competitor if you can reasonably do so, order a reshoot if you can't" but this specific instance is not covered anywhere I can find.

Neither of those two apply.  The target was neither prematurely pasted nor left unrestored from the previous shooter.  You're reading them selectively instead of entirely.

 

And no, we cannot infer intent either.  That was drilled into me during initial RO training.

 

In the absence of a rule that supports a reshoot for this particular and specific instance, I would rule "best two shots score" if this stage was scored Comstock.

 

Anything else and we become another shooting sport where intent seems to matter.

Edited February 11, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[Sarge]

54 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

The closest I can find is:

 

9.1.3

Prematurely Patched Targets – If a target is prematurely patched or taped, which prevents a Range Official from determining the actual score, the Range Officer must order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire.

 

and

 

9.1.4

Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the target for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. Reviewing previous score sheets is prohibited; targets must be scored as is, using the actual target as the basis for the scoring call.

 

~

 

That's what I meant about us needing to infer the rule in this case. The spirit of the rules certainly seem to say "Score the competitor if you can reasonably do so, order a reshoot if you can't" but this specific instance is not covered anywhere I can find.

This has always been the way I have understood the rules. If I can't accurately score a target then it's a reshoot. But I believe in the current scenario being discussed I could definitely score the target.

[mchapman]

Just going to throw this out there, 2.1.8 says to place targets so no shoot throughs, so would that lend it's self to 9.1.6.2  REF and a required reshoot?

[Sarge]

6 minutes ago, mchapman said:

Just going to throw this out there, 2.1.8 says to place targets so no shoot throughs, so would that lend it's self to 9.1.6.2  REF and a required reshoot?

Not REF, so no. Shoot throughs need to be rectified by moving one or both targets. In that case everybody has to reshoot the stage. 

[matteekay]

41 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

In the absence of a rule that supports a reshoot for this particular and specific instance, I would rule "best two shots score" if this stage was scored Comstock.

 

True, there is no rule that covers this specific scenario. However, there are multiple rules that state a shot fired into hardcover cannot score if it continues on to a target. You'd make no effort to determine which shot was which?

[SGT_Schultz]

5 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

True, there is no rule that covers this specific scenario. However, there are multiple rules that state a shot fired into hardcover cannot score if it continues on to a target. You'd make no effort to determine which shot was which?

 

If you go back to my first post in this thread (sorry seems like posts aren't numbered in this forum) I was replying to Mike Burgess who said:

Quote

the shot that passed through T2 and hit T1 is not scored, if it can not be determined what hole that is on T1 then a reshoot must be ordered.

So you can see that the situation he's posing does include an effort to try to determine which of the three was the pass through and that the effort failed.

 

Since there's no rule that orders a re-shoot for an individual in this situation, I would score the best two.

 

@Sarge did bring up a scenario where a re-shoot would be required: moving targets to eliminate the pass through.  In which case everyone gets a re-shoot.

[matteekay]

5 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

If you go back to my first post in this thread (sorry seems like posts aren't numbered in this forum) I was replying to Mike Burgess who said:

So you can see that the situation he's posing does include an effort to try to determine which of the three was the pass through and that the effort failed.

 

Since there's no rule that orders a re-shoot for an individual in this situation, I would score the best two.

 

@Sarge did bring up a scenario where a re-shoot would be required: moving targets to eliminate the pass through.  In which case everyone gets a re-shoot.

 

Sorry, that wasn't clear given the structure of the thread. So you're saying "try to determine which shots did not pass through the hard cover; if you can't, score the best two" ?

[SGT_Schultz]

6 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Sorry, that wasn't clear given the structure of the thread. So you're saying "try to determine which shots did not pass through the hard cover; if you can't, score the best two" ?

Correct