Limiting Shotgun Round Count In 3-gun

[redmercury2]

IS it or would it be a good idea to limit

round counts to say 15-20 in 3 gun shotgun so as to control the reload aspect as opposed to shooting aspect?

[Liota]

USPSA/IPSC is free-style. With that in mind, it is up to the competitor to solve the problem. Limiting the number of rounds in a stage infringes on the "free-style" aspect from the stage design side of things.

The mental side of this game is what appears to get most people to stay with it. The thrill is getting the job done in the most efficient manner. Let other shooting games and disciplines deal with limiting round count and engagement opportunities. We need to remain Free-Style.

Just my .02,

Liota

[redmercury2]

USPSA limits pistol stage round count but rmains freestyle.,my apologies ,i meant stage round count in original post.

[Liota]

USPSA limits pistol stage round count but rmains freestyle.,my apologies ,i meant stage round count in original post.

Yes, I understood that. Appreciate it.

I had heard some grumbling that shotgun stages should be limited to 10-12 rounds. It limits your creativity with that few rounds. I think it would hurt the sport.

Liota

[mhearn]

redmercury2

I heard this idea for the first time recently and have been thinking about it. High round count shotgun stages do put the emphasize on the reloading skill vs the shooting skill. Its a valid point. And, a skewed point of emphasize that should be addressed. With the higher target values that are possible now on shotgun stages, the round count could go down and still balance the match out.

Here come the but. Do we really need another rule to accomplish this? Could we just encourage Match Directors to move in this direction and let them decide if they want to or not. Shooters could then decide which matches they wanted to shoot based upon the match setup. Freedom to decide versus bureaucratic mandate.

What do you think?

Mhearn

[MikeFoley]

Balance in the overall match can be a problem whether 3Gun or pistol only. Your example is one that is very feasible in my opinion, simply because that one skill can dominate a match, the shotgun reload. In pistol, the example is the all hoser match with little emphasis on accuracy or problem solving. Balance is the issue, not the upper limit. I like the 6-18 rounders myself with steel, clay, and even slugs mixed in. If there is more than one high round count 20+ shotgun stage in a 10 stage match, then it becomes a major determining factor. As in any match, all the skills should be present, and be as equal as possible in the outcome, ideally. It is obvious that you should try to master all the skills, including the shotgun reload, but shooting, moving, positioning, and thinking should be present too.

[tewlman]

being a skilled shotgunner should not be based solely on how fast you can pull the trigger. It should be comprised of all skills nessecary to solve a particular problem (stage). Each weapon in 3 gun has emphasis on a particular skill, in shotgun, due to the capacity it happens to be the reloads. To limit the round count to negate this factor would be ludicris. If you shotgun reloads are slow then i might suggest some practice, not removing loading from stage design.

This ranks right up there with comments that the slug stage at the nationals was too expensive. OK, you paid $225 to get into the match, $300 for a hotel, say 200 for a rental car another 300 for airfare at least and you want to complain about spending 15 bucks on slugs, come on.

ymmv

[warpspeed]

If we are going to limit the round count on shotgun stages because they place the focus on reloading and not shooting then we should limit the distance required to move from one shooting area to another becasue it places too much emphasis on running and not shooting.

[tewlman]

If we are going to limit the round count on shotgun stages because they place the focus on reloading and not shooting then we should limit the distance required to move from one shooting area to another becasue it places too much emphasis on running and not shooting.

+1

[kurtm]

To say that fast reloading is what wins shotgun stages negates the other side of this coin. Do you know anyone who is really fast at reloading that ISN'T also good at the trigger pulling part?? All the top shotgun guys also load pretty darn fast. Do you know anyone who is a really great shotgunner and can't load a shotgun? To think that limiting shotgun loading to EVEN the playing field will work to make everyone equal is to not think the problem all the way through. Even if we limit the reloading to say no more than 4-6 round the really good shooters will still smoke us like salmon so why limit it? Lets take the limits off of the practice we do KURTM

[MikeFoley]

Once again, guys, this shouldn't be a rule, but the match should have balance. All high round count with the shotgun is not balance. Put a 24 rounder next to 4 speed shoots, but NOT next to another 24 rounder. Accuracy, Power, Speed, anyone remember those? We balance major pistol tournaments prior to sanction approval, why not 3Gun in the same manner. Short, medium, and long field courses with all 3 guns, standards stages with all 3 guns, and classifiers too would be proper.

Edited October 25, 2005 by fomeister

[kangaroo]

WHAT IS THE USE OF HAVING SHOTGUN IN A THREE MATCH. IF YOU ARE GOING TO STAND IN ONE SPOT AND SHOT YOUR 9-ROUNDS IN LIMITED OR YOUR 11-ROUNDS IN OPEN. RELOADING IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF ANY GUN. YOUR EITHER GOOD AT IT OR YOUR NOT. IF YOU ARE NOT THEN I SAY, IF YOU WAN'T TO PLAY THE GAME GO PRACTICE. WHEN I STARTED SHOOTING 3GUN MATCHES PISTOL RULED. THE SHOTGUN ROUND COUNT WAS RAISED TO BALANCE THE MATCH. [JUST MY 2 CENTS]

[smokshwn]

It seems to me that high round count shotgun stages put an even higher emphasis on getting your hits due to the fact that getting hits limits the number of reloads you do.

I agree with Fo's balance comments but Kurt's point is more on line. It seems that there are always discussions relvolving around limiting something or other that will supposedly "Level" the field. But those who are advocates of such practices seem to forget that the guy who wins is still the guy who practices the most and spends time honing his skills. To think that limiting shotgun round counts will suddenly uncover several hidden 3 gun prodigies who simply can't load a shotgun is silly. The good shooters will still be the good shooters.

Take care, Craig

[Religious Shooter]

All this talk about "practical" and "tactical" 3-gun... ppfffttttt!!!

The people who want to limit the round count should petition IDPA to start doing 3-Gun matches. They got those 8 or so round stages down pat.

[johnhurd]

USPSA/IPSC is free-style. We need to remain Free-Style.

Just my .02,

Liota

So why is there a limit on rounds in Open Shotgun??????????????? Not a magazine limit a round limit as far as I am concerned there goes freestyle out the window.

[Rising Sight]

I would rather wade through piles of hulls after a stage than have an 8rd stage. The short stages just go by way to quick for me.

[kurtm]

The round limit was because USPSA was triing to be politicaly correct due to the 1994 omnibus crime bill. Open, overseas, is exactly that!, which is funny because almost all countries overseas are much more gun unfriendly. Figure that one out, and while you are figuring, figure out why the crime bill has sunset but the 10 round limit in open hasn't. KURT

[George]

figure out why the crime bill has sunset but the 10 round limit in open hasn't

Yeah! What's up with that? Partially Open is what it really is ;-(

[MikeFoley]

Taken directly from the club program manual supplement on 3Gun:

Round Count

“The biggest problem with the shotgun is that it is always

empty,” quipped USPSA president Michael Voigt.

The shotgun’s limited magazine capacity puts

the shooter’s ability to reload on center stage. Solving the

problems of where to put your ammunition, keeping track

of what sort of ammunition is where, how to load it, etc., is part of the challenge of shotgun. Short courses are arguably more “realistic” for the use of the shotgun

(just as they are in pistol), but they are by no means

the “only” way to go. Be creative. High round counts

are okay. Short round counts are okay. Variety is

best. It’s not uncommon to see long courses of as

much as 25 rounds, followed by two short strings of

perhaps six.

[redmercury2]

HOW many pistol classifiers require more than 20 rounds.?

Classifiers are used to evaluate our skills are they not ,the original post concerned a 15-20 limit which clearly requires all divisions to reload at least once or twice.

[PacMan]

...limit round counts to say 15-20 in 3 gun shotgun so as to control the reload aspect as opposed to shooting aspect?

Do you practice pistol mag reloads? I bet we all do, some practices more than others, but WE ALL DO! So why not practice reloading the shotgun ???? Sounds to me like self-serving rule.

I $uck big time at fast shotgunning, but I try to 'even' the field by practicing my reloads since I can do this every night in the basement. But may be I should propose a new rule - No rapid fire shotgunning, limit all competitor to one shot every 2 seconds

Edited October 26, 2005 by PacMan

[kurtm]

Classifiers are a USPSA thang! IMGA doesn't do that so we can have as many rounds as we wish

On a more serious side, to use that logic no pistol stage shoould be over 20 rounds either. A classifier and standard do limit round count but Field courses usually don't. I guess there is a cap of what 32 rounds?? Why wouldn't that also apply to the shotgun AND the rifle???

[PacMan]

...Field courses usually don't. I guess there is a cap of what 32 rounds?? Why wouldn't that also apply to the shotgun AND the rifle???

Noooo...I am counting on my Beta C-mag to 'even' the field

[Wakal]

...while you are figuring, figure out why the crime bill has sunset but the 10 round limit in open hasn't...

Yep, the shotgun 10-round limit should go the same way as the rest of the retarded legacy from the Klinton years, such as Lim-10

I have real pistol magazines and a 18" shotgun that holds 21 2 3/4 12-gauge shells...lets play!

Seriously, though, if I wanted to shoot a 65-round State Championship, I'd shoot IDPA (and get disqualifed the day after I shot, if I was good enough ). The Texas State 3-Gun had USPSA-approved stages of 57 rounds

Alex

[MikeFoley]

We should test of all the skills with the shotgun. Reloading is one of those. There are other facets like distance, movement, position, target type and size, and ammo type. Flying clays are great fun!

A difference with reloading the pistol, is in Limited you can get another 20 in less than a second, same with rifle, but in a Limited shotgun, another 20 is a much more cumbersome and time consuming thing. Not gonna post a time here because then an argument will ensue about how long it takes and whose technique is best. My technique from shot to shot is about 2 seconds for the first round and one additional second per round up to four, then two for 5 and one additonal per round up to 8, and that won't get it done this weekend or any other.

Everyone has the same opportunity to practice, some do, and they are the better prepared, but I never hear anyone say they get great joy out of stuffing individual shells in a shotgun. Some of the guys saying "bring it on" have an interest in Open, once again anyone could choose to shoot Open, even though many will never do so. I personally shoot Tactical, and have no interest in an Open pistol or shotgun, so I gotta practice stuffing rounds into the gun in ones, threes, or fours.

That said, I really gotta practice reloads for the KY ST 3G coming up this weekend where it will be a major determining factor on the outcome since the only three shotgun courses are 22, 18, and 13. They will be fun, but the 18 and 13 will be more fun for me. It is all perspective on this issue for sure.