tewlman Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 remind me to get you a tissue on saturday mike... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 OK, I don't have a horse in this race anymore, but I think everyone's missing the real problem: course design. I think most shooters perceive, rightly for the most part, that an intensive shotgun stage with one or more flat-footed reloads can pretty well decide a match. Yes, reloading is an important skill, but to have one skill tilt an entire match tends to tick people off. There are a large number of ranges whose shooting bays are inadequately-sized to the task at hand for 3-gun. They are usually the 20 to 25 yard deep bays that worked just swimmingly for pistol, but are decidedly small for long guns. Instead of dumbing down the sport, some experimentation with course design and bay expansion could make for happier shotgunners (and make for interesting carbine stages). And while I'm at it, for those who think that the shotgun is some worthless relic of antiquity, go talk to anybody who actually was a front-line combat soldier in Vietnam. I will never forget what a guy told me when I was 16: "Those @#$%^& M-16's weren't worth a damn, but let me tell you boy, when the guy with the shotgun started up, shit fell out of trees." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 remind me to get you a tissue on saturday mike... better bring a whole box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Erik is spot on, about shotgunning. Course design is the real deal. It is a shame the MS 3-gun match had to be canceled because of Katrina, I had stages that tested every thing about shotgunning(except slugs......we shoot shotguns not great big bore rifles) tight, close, long, flying, moving ande even reloading. I had stages that were 8 round speed shoots, I had stages that were 28 round field courses and stages that were stand and deliver with moving targets.....steel and flying clays. NOBODY would have said anyone had a destinct advantage with a scattergun!!!! Until the stage designers really sit down and decide how to test the skills of a shotgunner thoroughly and then make stages that do so......and still incorporate long field courses with the scattergun, the people like Kurt M who practice and know how to reload a shotgun quite quickly will kick your aZZ.......so until then my sugestions is do like Kurt did......PRACTICE or quit whining. HOPALONG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Erik is spot on, about shotgunning.Course design is the real deal. It is a shame the MS 3-gun match had to be canceled because of Katrina, I had stages that tested every thing about shotgunning(except slugs......we shoot shotguns not great big bore rifles) tight, close, long, flying, moving ande even reloading. I had stages that were 8 round speed shoots, I had stages that were 28 round field courses and stages that were stand and deliver with moving targets.....steel and flying clays. NOBODY would have said anyone had a destinct advantage with a scattergun!!!! Until the stage designers really sit down and decide how to test the skills of a shotgunner thoroughly and then make stages that do so......and still incorporate long field courses with the scattergun, the people like Kurt M who practice and know how to reload a shotgun quite quickly will kick your aZZ.......so until then my sugestions is do like Kurt did......PRACTICE or quit whining. HOPALONG Sounds like you had the right idea Sam, setting up many different types of shotgun courses. One should practice the reloads, no question, no doubt, no whining. There should also be some balance as you had planned for. That is the sign of a great course designer, when his 6 round courses and his 32 round courses all get balanced together in the match. They are all fun! That is the permanent smile that is 3Gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Praying Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 Here's my 2 cents. 8 to 12 rounds on a stage of any kind just makes me mad. If that's all I'm going to shoot I'll stay home and do it. In the summer around here some of the clubs cut the round count from about 150 to 120, and I always leave feeling like I still need to shoot something. I understand why and thats ok, but it don't change the way I feel. Lets face it, it's not that hard to hit a clay or steel target with a shotgun. (Although I do miss from time to time) Reloading is a very important part of shotgunning. If you don't think so put youself in a gun fight with one and I think you'll see the light. I don't like practicing shotgun reloads, even though I shoot open. It's just not fun to me, but if I want to beat Kangaroo and Hoppy on the Area 6-3 Gun I better get started. That's what it's all about, Competition and having fun. If you want to win or just get better, you need to PRACTICE. Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trail3 Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 Keep the round counts up, 18-30. If I want a short count shotgun stage, 6-12, I'll shoot at my local IDPA shotgun side match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 I have real pistol magazines and a 18" shotgun that holds 21 2 3/4 12-gauge shells...lets play! For a second I forgot about your box fed shotgun, and I did the math. I guess with a 18" barrel and a 55" (plus room for the spring) tubular mag, you could shoot your match, then string some paracord from the front sight and go fishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Vlad, A semi-local (loco) guy has a 17-round 1100. Slap a bayonet on it and call it a pike Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhurd Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Well I read thru here and if reloading a SG is such a fine motor skill, why are the speed feed tubes allowed???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 if reloading a SG is such a fine motor skill, why are the speed feed tubes allowed They are only allowed in Open because you cannot limit accessories in that Division. They are a fine motor skill too, believe me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Well I gotta eat a little crow and stand corrected on this whole shotgun thing to an extent. I saw that an upcoming match had 3 shotgun stages that required reloading, one was 13 rounds, one was 18 rounds, and one was 22 rounds with 12 bird and 10 slugs. I began to practice getting ammo from a belt carrier instead of a side saddle, a skill I was not very proficient with. I only practiced 4-5 nights before the match and got smoother than before, but not quite what I thought would be competitive. After getting to the match and seeing the 18 rounder was through 3 ports of varying height, the 13 rounder was really an 11 (optional disappearing clays) with 3 ports, and the 22 rounder was 5 shooting positions, the reload was only a means to an end. These were the most fun shotgun stages I have ever shot in my life. I am no longer sure that the reload is majority of the skill, but one of the many skills it takes to be good at 3Gun shotgun. It wasn't hard to get better, and I did a lot better on these stages than I thought I would, even placing first (non-open) on the largest one. Still I wouldn't want to see all 32 round courses with the scattergun, but I am more confident if I do encounter them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Smith Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Here in the UK our typical shotgun matches are made up of 12 stages those stages will usually be 2x 28 round stages lots of movement & multiple shooting positions 4x 12-18 round stages which include 2 or more shooting positions 6 x speed shoot type stages 6-8 round stages 1 or two shooting positions This has proved to be a popular balance of loading skill v speed shooting ability ask Kurt M or Pat Kelly what they think of UK shotgun matches, both of which could be found at the British Open this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 We just shot a stage at the ARK. state match that was 32 rds. talk about fast loading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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