Undersized cases constricting plated lead bullets causing accuracy issues

[impact]

thanks again everybody!

So my Dillon funnel/expander measures around .352 in OD, which (without considering springback of the brass) would result in at least 4" neck tension. With rifles you'd typically want around .002", and thats with jacketed bullets.

What came to my mind is using a universal expander mandrel die to finetune expansion. I've got one from Sinclair. What about that? - Yeah, I'm using no bullet feeder right now... I'd kinda always wanted to but then instead invested the money in bullets, powder and primers... So I've got a station left to work with.

edit: I just realized the mandrel die I'm using is good for .17 to .338 caliber, there's a seperate for .35 to .50. But maybe worth the investment. .356 and .357 mandrels seem readily available.

The linked PTU's are also interesting, especially should I ever acutally upgrade to a bullet feeder.

 

To those who have tried, how fine is the line between having too much restriction, swaging down bullets, and having to little, giving erratic combustion and bullet setback from the lack of neck tension? What are you willing to accept in swaging down? .001"? less?

 

 

 

I'm afraid I can't shoot milk jugs at my range. One Is more the bullseye type shooting range and the oder is a indoor IPSC/USPSA type shooting range.

But I probably can make a mold, and I for sure got some air rifle pellets laying around somewhere... what OD should I strive for? .358?

Edited October 5, 2020 by impact

[HOGRIDER]

5 hours ago, impact said:

thanks again everybody!

So my Dillon funnel/expander measures around .352 in OD, which (without considering springback of the brass) would result in at least 4" neck tension. With rifles you'd typically want around .002", and thats with jacketed bullets.

What came to my mind is using a universal expander mandrel die to finetune expansion. I've got one from Sinclair. What about that? - Yeah, I'm using no bullet feeder right now... I'd kinda always wanted to but then instead invested the money in bullets, powder and primers... So I've got a station left to work with.

edit: I just realized the mandrel die I'm using is good for .17 to .338 caliber, there's a seperate for .35 to .50. But maybe worth the investment. .356 and .357 mandrels seem readily available.

The linked PTU's are also interesting, especially should I ever acutally upgrade to a bullet feeder.

 

To those who have tried, how fine is the line between having too much restriction, swaging down bullets, and having to little, giving erratic combustion and bullet setback from the lack of neck tension? What are you willing to accept in swaging down? .001"? less?

 

 

 

I'm afraid I can't shoot milk jugs at my range. One Is more the bullseye type shooting range and the oder is a indoor IPSC/USPSA type shooting range.

But I probably can make a mold, and I for sure got some air rifle pellets laying around somewhere... what OD should I strive for? .358?

Have you considered using the Mister Bullet Feeder Powder Funnel?

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/205711-fix-for-shaving-lead-bullets/

 

 

[impact]

2 hours ago, HOGRIDER said:

Have you considered using the Mister Bullet Feeder Powder Funnel?

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/205711-fix-for-shaving-lead-bullets/

 

 

Thanks for the input.

I know that this exists, but the main difference is that it seems to have a shorter expander section before the bevel starts, so I'm afraid this section probably won't go deep enough into the case to help combat constriction as well as the HTC PTU.

 

[George16]

I have loaded .356 coated bullets from Blue Bullets using the MBF and Dillon powder funnel that came with 550. I can definitely tell the difference in the expansion of the cases (same headstamp) using these two funnels/expanders.
 

The MBF expands the cases deeper compared to the Dillon and stabilizes the bullets better and prevents the bullets from tipping over.

 

I also change the setting of the powder funnel (raise or lower) whenever I change bullet size/diameter. For .356/.357 diameter bullets, I lower the powder funnel to expand the case mouth deeper and bigger compared to the settings for .355 diameter bullets. So far, so good and don’t have any problems.

[impact]

I could possibly even remachine the powder transfer unit (fancy name) on my lathe that came with the dillon, but it's possibly surface hardened and when I get to the material beneath it possibly won't last as long...

[Miranda]

hi impact,

 

weeeeell,  I replaced the insert in the lee 38 powder die.

I used ordinary cold rolled steel...

I did this about 4 or 5 years back. 

I do not have a way to check any notes or the item I made for the next month... or two.

I recall .356 as the outside diameter and minus some from polishing.

Making the bell taper was hard, my lathe is, ah... lets call it loose.

I recall the expander was made to expand to size and depth of bullet seating.

the depth was to limit any setback of the bullet.

 

couple of overall points... I used a dial caliper.

for all these parts, I started with a slug from the barrel that measured .355

the bullets as cast were .357... ish and sized to .357 with a lee .357 die

my measure was .357 to .356 depending on where or luck for the sized bullets.

pulled bullets lost about a half thou at most and this is also the limit of resolution for a dial caliper.

I do not recall trying .356 bullets

I can't remember why the 38 die was the starting point... something to do with sizing depth...

 

cut a bit big and sand/polish to size is most of the trick.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

[HOGRIDER]

3 hours ago, impact said:

I could possibly even remachine the powder transfer unit (fancy name) on my lathe that came with the dillon, but it's possibly surface hardened and when I get to the material beneath it possibly won't last as long...

These are being built to the same specifications as his original design.............according to Rick Koskela.

 

https://www.photoescapeinc.com/products/powder-funnel.html

 

https://uniquetek.com/product/T1736

 

Had one remachined to .357" and repolished.  Works like a charm!

 

 

 

[Bobkoh]

On 10/3/2020 at 7:30 PM, George16 said:

No I don’t. 
 

It’s very important that the case is resized correctly because it provides the bullet tension to prevent setback and not the crimp. Crimp (taper crimp) is actually a misnomer since all that needs to be done is to remove the flare on the case when it was expanded to accept the bullet. It’s not done (crimp) to hold the bullet in the case to prevent bullet setback.

 

For 9mm, I’m using a Redding sizing/decapping die.

 

Fascinating. I know what I can do with a 1911, but had major problems with Glocks. I did make upmseveral dummies to try and ended up having to taper crimp them (Redding).

[Bobkoh]

On 10/3/2020 at 8:18 PM, 4n2t0 said:

Case mouth measurement should be somewhere between .377-.379. Check a pulled bullet, no more than a faint line should be visible.

 

Don't do this...

 

 

In the meantime, tell us more about this brand new barrel that clearly isn't the problem...

 

 

 

Sadly with an early Glock that's almost as bad as I had to go to prevent set back. This is perplexing. 

 

Sorry for the slow response, I forgot to "follow" the thread. This forum software is a wee bit different. 

[HesedTech]

3 hours ago, Bobkoh said:

 

Sadly with an early Glock that's almost as bad as I had to go to prevent set back. This is perplexing. 

 

Sorry for the slow response, I forgot to "follow" the thread. This forum software is a wee bit different. 

I don’t know which sizing die you are using, but if setback is an issue it’s the wrong one.

 

For setback issues the standard Dillon, and Lee (undersize) work perfect. No need for tight crimp with all bullet diameters.

[George16]

6 hours ago, Bobkoh said:

 

Fascinating. I know what I can do with a 1911, but had major problems with Glocks. I did make upmseveral dummies to try and ended up having to taper crimp them (Redding).

Double check the setting of your sizing die. Screw it in until it touches the shell plate.
 

Put an unsize case in the shellplate, raise it up and tighten the die nut. Lower the shellplate to remove the sized case and double check it with a sizing gauge to make sure it was sized properly.

Edited October 6, 2020 by George16

[4n2t0]

38 minutes ago, George16 said:

Double check the setting of your sizing die. Screw it in until it touches the shell plate and back it off about 1/8 of a turn.

 

Dillon dies must touch the shell plate, do not back off the die.

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by 4n2t0

[George16]

1 hour ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

Dillon dies must touch the shell plate, do not back off the die.

 

Corrected. Thanks. 

[Bobkoh]

7 hours ago, George16 said:

Double check the setting of your sizing die. Screw it in until it touches the shell plate.
 

Put an unsize case in the shellplate, raise it up and tighten the die nut. Lower the shellplate to remove the sized case and double check it with a sizing gauge to make sure it was sized properly.

 

The die is set right, but it's not top end. Trick is I'm working up a load that will work in my 1911s and a Glock 19. Once I do we'll most likely start loading it on my 550 at his house. I did test some rounds starting low, but when I got up to 4.1 of 231 with an OAL of 1.065, it shot very nicely. So more loading this week. 

 

BUT, My thank to all for the help, I swore off 9mm in the 70s going IPSC with series 70s. Well here I am again and very new to the world of 9mm. I'm here to learn. 

[impact]

Alright, first range update.

shot 3 14yard groups today

1/L) 25rds 124RN hard crimp (the way I used to do it, OD ~.375-.376 at case mouth)

     2 shots keyholed again, missing the target completely by ~2 and 4 inches. Also quite a few significant flyers within the target area

2/M) 25rds 124RN gentle crimp (pulled bullets only show a minor scratch at best, OD ~.377-.378, bullets still downsized by excessive neck tension/restriction)

     no keyholing in 25rds, group tightened up, still flyers (7ring borderline), the 9ring "flyers" were mostly called

3/R) 15 rds Control group, 115FMJ factory load

     everything outside the 10ring was 100% my fault. I'm kinda trying to re-learn good pistol form since for the last 2 years I shot mostly carbine and rifle. And I for sure jerked the trigger a few times since I shot with reddot and the dancing dot tempts me to be too aggressive with trigger pull as it meets the x-ring...

 

 

So overall I felt we made progress, thaks for the crimping tips! Now I'll have to tackle bullet OD constriction by excessive neck tension, and hope I'll find a tool/setting that still properly holds the bullet in place for violent feeding.

I'll also redo this test with my PCC load and see if it's helping accuracy there too.

[Dwbsig]

Why don’t you try backing off on your crimp a little more and see how they group I crimp my lead loads at .379-.380 and .378-.379 for jacketed bullets. It may help only way to know is try it .  Good luck

[Miranda]

Hi Impact,

I am repeating a lot of things I have read.
I'll share my conclusions after...

 

copper plated bullets are lead bullets with a coating.

accuracy from lead bullets are from having the right diameter
and having tails that lack any mold flash (homemade)
and a firearm that can shoot properly (crown)
and a COL fit to your chamber (trials after you get other bits right...)
and a powder you trust.

all that is from castboolits... and a lot of reading...

 

all this starts with being pretty sure of your barrel size.
this also means you can't swage the bullet bottoms and expect them to fit.
the rule of thumb is bullet 1 to 2 thous bigger than barrel.

 

my experience...
the fit to the barrel can be easy, use soft bullets.
I tried it and 98 percent lead was pretty good.
Just look at the bullet wrong and you get a big dent in it.
And do not drop them, they will stick to rocks and little children.

you are running plated so skip that part....

the part where you need a thou bigger is not to be ignored.

my barrel slugged at .355.
my harder bullets jumped in accuracy once I got to .357
or 357 and maybe a little swaging from the case.

my .356 and probably a little swaging from the case was a bit wider than your result.

I use HP-38/w231
my COL testing was with rn fmj and I decided on 1.130
that was done before I started making bullets.

 

so my advice for you is that Dwbsig is correct.
definitely back off that crimp a bit more.

this by itself may get you all you need.

in addition consider a bigger expander/funnel
to give your fatter bullets a little more room.

even fairly hard lead in no match for a brass case.
the lead will swage.

 

miranda

[impact]

Sooo...

According crimp, I adjusted the Crimp die just a hair out and now get around .380 to .3805 on the very mouth. On some you can even see and feel a slight bevel left. So that's basicvally not crimping just laying down the case mouth. I'll try that, but my guts tell me that's not how corretly loaded ammo should be like. But whatever, let the results decide...

 

 

I also got a std. dillon powder funnel, and remachined it to (currently) .358 and a expander lenght of about how deep the 124s are seated (right on picture).

Yes, they are surface hardened, yes the material beneath machines more easily and will probably wear faster, but the very edge on the .358 diameter expander section that leads into the brass is still somewhat of hardened material, so it probably will hold up for a long time. I could possibly evern harden it myself? Torch it until it glows red and than submerge it into oil? My metallurgy is not as strong anymore... At least considering hardening steels.

 

Anyways. I loaded up a few dummies to try that out... well... Expanding works fine, extracting the expander from the case upon the downward stroke now becomes even more annoying and now I can literally seat the bullets by hand! There is resistance, it's on the edge of doable, but I can now seat bullets by hand (and finish them with a caliper to seat them to a very constant OAL lol ). Bullet constriction is zero. At least not measurable. Inertia unloading is very easy, comes out at first on a gentle strike every time.

 

I'll load some up and probably single feed them into the pistol just to see what happens, and then I'll have to sand down that expander section and see if I can find a working line between very little bullet downsizing and enough neck tension to resist feeding and handling.

I'll also load some up with a more pronounced crimp, to see if that helps with "neck tension" a little bit, but I don't hope that's the only way I get them to shoot...

 

No barrel slugging yet. But it's on my list.

 

That's it for now, I'll keep you updated. Thanks for all inputs so far!

Edited October 14, 2020 by impact

[4n2t0]

Remember, 9mm "spaces" off the case mouth and setback is controlled by sizing. Most factory ammo has a slighty more aggressive crimp because the vast majority of manufacturers use FMJ bullets. You cannot crimp as aggressively when loading plated/coated bullets. In fact, the only time I would apply a little more crimp on a 9mm round would be if I was to use them in a revolver.

 

P.S. Although admirable, I think your experimentation with deep case expansion might prove counterproductive.

Edited October 14, 2020 by 4n2t0

[Miranda]

Hi Impact,

.358 as an expander funnel is a bit big.

this is from your description of seating more than anything else.

 

you should consider thinning it a bit more.  at least aim at .357 and try that.

do not expand down into the case further than the bullets will seat.

this will help prevent setback of the bullets. something you do want to avoid.

 

.3 inches is what I remember for expander depth on the one I made.

the idea was to push the bullet into the case .3 inches and the case would keep the bullet from

easily going deeper.   I am running lee 125 grain round nose.

you may need to calculate your depth for your COL and bullet.

You would also like some case neck tension.  At least more than you are describing.

 

The crimp is to remove the bell and allow the ammo to feed.

your numbers are good on that.

 

miranda

 

 

[impact]

@4n2t0Yes, I'm aware how headspacing on a 9x19 works, I just wanted to crimp just a little more, since originally I was at the point where, as said, there was still a hair of beveling left on the very end of the casemouth. I've never been in the range where beveling was so pronounced that there was no flat ring-surface left on the face of the case mouth to prevent over insertion into the camber. And I agree, It seems FMJ bullets are a lot more forgiving because of their sturdy jacket.

 

@Miranda .358 was just the baseline for me. What I was trying to achieve is get to the point where no bullet restriction was present anymore, and work down from there. I'm aware that I likely wouldn't have found a practical load method there, but I was able to prove that bullet restriction was the major component to my accuracy issues.

I loaded up 20 bullets with a very light crimp using the modified .358 powder funnel expander, and handloaded them into the camber to prevent corruption of the test by bullet setback. Here's the result:

20 shots at 14yards/12.5m unsupported offhand. Honestly I also payed more attention to fundamentals and focused on follow through and trigger control, however the overall result is a lot better than any previous attempts with more neck tension. The 9 ring hits were all called, so I'm pretty confident in this load.

I also made 20 shots of the same load but with a considerable (excessive) amount of crimp, just to see the results. It opended up a bit. Although a lot less than any previous tests with no to little crimp and the original .352" expander. So I'm headed the right way I guess. The excessive crimp was not enought to keep the bullets in place (under feeding and rough handling), that was the second reason I tried this out.

 

I've already ground down the .358 diameter expander section to .357 and had no measurable bullet constrition (on pulled bullets) there too, but (comparatively) a lot more neck tensio to work with. I'm about to load a bunch of them up (with just a very slight crimp) and see how they perform shooting and feeing wise. Seems I'm on the edge of having no setback under normal feeding/handling circumsances, but we'll see.

 

Regarding expansion depth, I see the benefit of having as little as possible and using the transition for the base of the bullet to rest against. However I'm limited in experimenting with seating depth then. I'm not sure how much of an contributor to accuracy seating depth is in pistol cartridges, as long as combustion (low V0 SD/ES) and feeding works fine, but I'll have an eye on that. I recon it's almost negligible in pistol lenght barrels, but it might play a role in my PCC's accuracy.

On the other hand I'm not likely to go shorter then ~1.100" so raising the expander/powder funnel should work for experimentation. For proper high volume loading I'd have to machine/shorten the expander section accordingly, so I still get deep enough for the cone to bevel up the case mouth for bullet seating.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by impact

[Miranda]

hi impact,

overall it sounds like you have the expander diameter set for making good and accurate ammo.

 

A heads-up; the depth of expansion is mostly to prevent setback.

You will want to avoid that.

 

proper expansion of the case will get you good accuracy, because the bullet does not get swaged.

the bullet gets to obdurate into the barrel near the bottom of the bullet.

that is supposed to get better seal and accuracy.

so if you can help it, it is far better to expand the case down to about the same as the depth you want the bullet bottom to go.

you get a two-fer.  a more accurate bullet and a strong prevention of setback.

 

it does mean your expander/funnel is specific for bullet seating depth.

if you use smaller bullets, your COL may well need to be reduced...

 

This is part of why my expander was made for the lead bullet/COL/recipe of my ammo.

 

... If you make or modify more than one expander...

you will want to mark it clearly.

don't ask how I know.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Miranda
forgot to say diameter

[impact]

@Miranda That's a good tip for sure. I know what you're talking about. I got some test ammo laying around from about a year ago which I failed labing because "I know what's in there, I just loaded it, how would I forget?"....

 

I'll likely match the expander depth to the load I'm using once I confirmed the seating depth is good to go. Currently, it also looks kinda longer than it actually is since it's still got the .352" expander section on it. On the picture above (with the two powder funnels) you can (barely) see the line between the .352" and .358" section, on the same level as where the cone starts on the unmodified one.

 

 

Current status is, I actually loaded up some ammo (100rds) with the new .357" size expander and also pulled bullets on dummies and tried to push the bullets into the case further by hand and by cycling them through my glock.

Bullet downsizing was on the edge of occouring. 7 in 10 still measured .356 and 3 read .3555. Probably effected by the hardness (use history) of the case and hard to measure exaclty because a caliper isn't exaclty the right tool for such fine measurements.

Setback from pushing and feeding also was even closer to non existent. Impossible by hand, and on rough feeding/cycling I had some change by about .01mm, which is about .0004". So that's probably only dinging the bullet tip.

Accuracy was also pretty good. I mean, I wasn't doing any ransom rest testing (which is probably pointless with a Glock anyway) but grouping looked pretty good:

Again, 20 rounds at ~14yards/12.5m, all magazine fed. "flyers" for sure caused by me and I was experimenting with grip pressure/technique a bit, that's probably why there is a pronounced vertical pattern. But overall it looks like I probably found a sweetspot.

 

The only thing that's bothering me now, is the increase in force required on the ram's downward stroke, to retract the expander/powder funnel from the case after expading.

But probably a sizing die that won't constrict the case as much to begin with helps to tame down that a little bit. It might also be gentler on the brass, increasing lifespan a bit.

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by impact

[Miranda]

Hi Impact,

good!

I think you will be fine. 

I can't find a picture of my favorite funnel/expander.

it is likely to be a month till I get back to my reloading room.

 

I found that a combo of polish and a little rounding at the bottom got a much easier release

of the case...  I could only tell when the expander was the only die in use...

 

once you have confidence in your little arrows, you can assume you did the flyers.

I found the personal mistakes hard to fix, and that is the whole point in this game.

 

luck!

miranda

[DryHeat]

On 10/15/2020 at 8:51 AM, Miranda said:

Hi Impact,

good!

I think you will be fine. 

I can't find a picture of my favorite funnel/expander.

it is likely to be a month till I get back to my reloading room.

 

I found that a combo of polish and a little rounding at the bottom got a much easier release

of the case...  I could only tell when the expander was the only die in use...

 

once you have confidence in your little arrows, you can assume you did the flyers.

I found the personal mistakes hard to fix, and that is the whole point in this game.

 

luck!

miranda

Miranda,

     Thanks for a series of posts that provide absolute clarity to the problem. I came here to find a solution and you provided such with out bluster, Thanks!