A High Capacity CO Competition Pistol?

[BobRockefeller]

I am interested in picking a high capacity (17 or more rounds), 9mm, pistol well suited for Carry Optic Division competition in USPSA and IDPA. In this pursuit, I have narrowed my choices to the M&P 5" C.O.R.E. (1.0 and/or 2.0) or the SIG P320 X5 Legion. Others, for various reasons, have been ruled out.

 

Knowing that this is an S&W branch of the forum, I imagine there there will be some degree of bias in the responses. I get that. But I would appreciate less of "the other gun sucks" and "this gun is the best" help and more of the objective "this gun is better because of X and Y."

 

So, what advice do you guys, preferably with experience on both platforms, have?

 

P.S. I've cross-posted this in the P320 section.

[The Donald]

I have both M&P 5" Pros in both 1.0 and 2.0, I also bought a few weeks ago a P320 X-Five. The Legion if you like the grip has a better trigger than either of my M&P's. The Legion has probably the best striker fired gun trigger out of the box. Also the Legion now is set up to mount RMR pattern optics along with the Sig Romeo 1. Even the M&P CORES require adapter plates.

 

On The Legion if you don't like the grip you can really easily change the grip, or send off for grip mods.

 

To make a M&P close to a P320 Legion you would need an Apex trigger and barrel plus Dawson sights if not installing optics.

Edited May 7, 2020 by The Donald

[BobRockefeller]

5 minutes ago, The Donald said:

I have both M&P 5" Pros in both 1.0 and 2.0, I also bought a few weeks ago a P320 X-Five. The Legion if you like the grip has a better trigger than either of my M&P's. The Legion has probably the best striker fired gun trigger out of the box. Also the Legion now is set up to mount RMR pattern optics along with the Sig Romeo 1. Even the M&P CORES require adapter plates.

 

On The Legion if you don't like the grip you can really easily change the grip, or send off for grip mods.

 

Have you settled on one for competition?

 

The M&P must have an Apex trigger upgrade, in my view. It makes the M&P trigger much more comparable to the Legion stock trigger.

 

I see the utility of optic adapter plates, but they do tend to mount the RDS slightly higher than on a slide cut for the optic. Although the Legion (at least the more current production models) do have holes for the RMR pattern, is there a mechanism to transfer slide cycling forces directly to the side, rather than depending on shear force though the screws? The DPP mounts tight to the front and rear of the slot; I think that's an advantage.

[BJB]

Either gun will serve you well.  Neither gun will hold you back.  Good aftermarket support for both platforms too.  

 

The Sig has a better trigger out of the box, but the M&P can have a nice trigger with Apex parts dropped in. 

The Sig can be made heavier than the M&P.  For some shooters that's a big plus, but if you grip the snot out of the gun it's not that big of an advantage.  The M&P may have less than stellar accuracy with heavier bullets thru the factory barrel.  Mine had poorer accuracy with heavy bullets but shot 124/115s fine.  I put an Apex semi-fit barrel in it and it's accurate with all weights now.

 

I like both guns.  The Sig costs more but the M&P might require a little extra work to bring it's trigger and accuracy up to par with the SIg so cost will likely be a wash in the end.  Select either and you're good-to-go.

[The Donald]

Both my M&P's are no where near as accurate as my P320 X-Five. The Sig shoots as real close to as tight of groups as my 2011's.

 

When you figure an Apex trigger and barrel to a M&P, that is another $400 to the M&P to make it equal to a Legion.

[MemphisMechanic]

There really isn’t a need to choose a gun based on it’s factory mag capacity.

 

The PPQ only holds fifteen from the factory, but setting them up to hold 23 rounds while still  reloading with as little effort as a factory magazine is not very hard.

 

You have the same ~140mm to work with, so they all all top out at 23-24 rounds.

 

[mgkrs]

M&P Pros:

- With Apex trigger, I think you may be able to get an even better trigger than the P320

- Adjustable backstraps

- More optics supports like the Burris Fastfire / Vortex Viper footprint. The CORE plates are quite thin, I wouldn't be concerned about the height they raise the RDS. Also, the plates have nubs that help support the optic - though on the 2.0 they're plastic. Looks like if you attach straight to the p320 you're depending entirely on the screws.

 

Cons:

- Weight: The Legion has a huge weight advantage. Even with tungsten guide rod and brass baseplates, the M&P is at least 10 oz lighter

- Modularity: Being able to change the grip modules of the P320 is nice

 

 

That said, the X5 Legion is hugely more popular than the M&P for competition right now. You're going to see a lot more aftermarket support and fellow shooters than the M&P. I like my M&P but if I was going for a new gun now I would probably go with the X5 Legion.

[BobRockefeller]

2 minutes ago, mgkrs said:

M&P Pros:

- With Apex trigger, I think you may be able to get an even better trigger than the P320

- Adjustable backstraps

- More optics supports like the Burris Fastfire / Vortex Viper footprint. The CORE plates are quite thin, I wouldn't be concerned about the height they raise the RDS. Also, the plates have nubs that help support the optic - though on the 2.0 they're plastic. Looks like if you attach straight to the p320 you're depending entirely on the screws.

 

Cons:

- Weight: The Legion has a huge weight advantage. Even with tungsten guide rod and brass baseplates, the M&P is at least 10 oz lighter

- Modularity: Being able to change the grip modules of the P320 is nice

 

 

That said, the X5 Legion is hugely more popular than the M&P for competition right now. You're going to see a lot more aftermarket support and fellow shooters than the M&P. I like my M&P but if I was going for a new gun now I would probably go with the X5 Legion.

 

There are X5s and X5 Legions everywhere I look at a match!

 

The big news on the Legion is the weight, so much weight that something has to be removed to run it in IDPA! How do folks find that weight? It should help with recoil. But does it make the pistol hard to move around (draw and target transitions)?

[mgkrs]

That'll be personal preference, but given that limited shooters have had guns that weight for a long time, it seems like the sweet spot in recoil management and mobility.

 

That said, Jerry Miculek with an M&P will be better than 99% of shooters with any gun:

 

 

[BobRockefeller]

1 minute ago, mgkrs said:

That said, Jerry Miculek with an M&P will be better than 99% of shooters with any gun:

 

Jerry is a prime example of the fact it's The Indian and not The Arrow.

[71Commander]

I don't like the position of the slide stop on the Sig. I kept hitting it and locking the slide while shooting.

[71Commander]

On 5/7/2020 at 9:22 AM, The Donald said:

I have both M&P 5" Pros in both 1.0 and 2.0, I also bought a few weeks ago a P320 X-Five. The Legion if you like the grip has a better trigger than either of my M&P's. The Legion has probably the best striker fired gun trigger out of the box. Also the Legion now is set up to mount RMR pattern optics along with the Sig Romeo 1. Even the M&P CORES require adapter plates.

 

On The Legion if you don't like the grip you can really easily change the grip, or send off for grip mods.

 

To make a M&P close to a P320 Legion you would need an Apex trigger and barrel plus Dawson sights if not installing optics.

The Apex flat trigger nullifies that.

[The Donald]

51 minutes ago, 71Commander said:

The Apex flat trigger nullifies that.

Nullifies what?

[mgkrs]

This video gave good information on the benefits of a heavier gun:
 

 

[BobRockefeller]

I saw that video and was surprised by how little effect his changes made. Perhaps 8oz is not enough to tell.

[BobRockefeller]

4 hours ago, The Donald said:

Nullifies what?

 

I would imagine that he means installing an Apex trigger kit nullifies the Legions trigger advantage.

[The Donald]

2 hours ago, BobRockefeller said:

 

I would imagine that he means installing an Apex trigger kit nullifies the Legions trigger advantage.

The barrel lock up is better with the Legion. M&P's have sloppy lock up, the Apex barrel makes the M&P shoot decent groups. So you are just shy of $400 from the Apex flat trigger and the Apex barrel plus sights, to get it as good as a Legion, and then you still don't have the heavier grip.

 

I shot M&P's for a while and still my carry gun is a full size M&P i picked up cheap.

[bigfish]

I personally would not choose a gun based on weight until having shot both heavy and light guns.  After owning and shooting in competition M&Ps, Czs, and 2011s I found with heavy guns that my splits are slightly faster on double taps, Bill drills, and stuff like that, but every aspect, including stage times are faster with the light M&Ps.  The heavy guns are nice when shooting paper, but the light guns really shine when shooting Steel

Edited May 10, 2020 by bigfish

[BobRockefeller]

Shooting the M&P and X5 Legion side-by-side I really notice the bulk of the SIG. Yes, it weighs more, but it is also thicker in almost every dimension.

 

The grip of the Legion seems squarer and the M&P more tapered. Combined with the lower weight, the M&P feels positively svelte next to the Legion.

 

Neither is more accurate in my hands. The M&P must have a later barrel because it has the wider, more tapered, barrel ramp like the 2.0.

[71Commander]

On 5/9/2020 at 2:21 PM, BobRockefeller said:

 

I would imagine that he means installing an Apex trigger kit nullifies the Legions trigger advantage.

Yep

[71Commander]

I'm just a lowly 'A' shooter but it's not my gun holding me back.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by 71Commander

[TrackCage]

On 5/9/2020 at 8:01 AM, BobRockefeller said:

I saw that video and was surprised by how little effect his changes made. Perhaps 8oz is not enough to tell.

Or that the weight of the gun makes much less difference that we think it does.