Airgunning

[Loves2Shoot]

I've heard a lot of fuss about "air gunning" lately. There is absolutely no advantage to "air gunning" so what is the big deal? Is it against the rules to know where the targets are in IDPA? Wouldn't that make the stages vastely unfair to the first shooters? I'm wanting to shoot an IDPA match this winter and don't want to pile up the penalties since I have to travel quite aways to get to one. Any tips are welcome.

[Mayonaise]

I've heard a lot of fuss about "air gunning" lately. There is absolutely no advantage to "air gunning" so what is the big deal?

If there's no advantage why is it very common practice in IPSC, USPSA and Steel Challenge etc...?

I'm wanting to shoot an IDPA match this winter and don't want to pile up the penalties since I have to travel quite aways to get to one. Any tips are welcome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very simple. Download the IDPA Rulebook. Read it. Read it twice. More if needed. Ask questions then.

Mark

Edited October 4, 2005 by Mayonaise

[Headshot45]

sooner or later I knew I would have to jump in and reply to some of these topics, so......

Airgunning is neither good or bad....but it is against the rules, plain and simple. The reason for this is simple...the founders wanted the shooter to perform the needs of the COF without all of the extra choreography being practiced before hand. See? Plain and simple. Where the discussions get askew is the fact that in USPSA the COF's are very intricately choreographed, down to the airgunning of the draw stroke, the reloads, exactly where to place your foot, etc.

The other problem with airgunning is the amount of time it can take....for example...there are some shooters who will take more time choreographing a single stage then they take actually shooting an entire match. Very likely not even knowing what they are really doing, but emulating the truly gifted shooters who have an exact science of what they are trying to achieve. Picture the weekend golfer....as he walks around the green trying to read his 10 foot putt for double bogey or worse....lookig at all angles....getting behind the ball and plumb-bobbing....probably has absolutely no clue what a plumb-bob is let alone how to do it, but sees it on TV when the truly gifted pros do it. never mind that they know what they are doing....anyway, the problem snowballs and it was something the founders of IDPA did not want in this sport.

Does that mean it is a stupid thing to do? No, far from it, but unless you know exactly what will benefit YOU, why bother? All you are going to do is have something go wrong halfway into the stage, have that dumb look of surprise since THAT wasn't choreographed , suddenly realize that the clock is still running, and "brain fade" your way through the rest of the stage ending up nothing at all what you just "airgunned".

Ok, maybe that only happens to me....

Frank

[Loves2Shoot]

Thanks Frank!

Mark, I did read the manual, that's why I asked the question about knowing where the targets are. I couldn't find the part that says you can't look at the targets (specifically anything about angles.) I'll look some more.

I just want to know is where the targets are and when I need to insert more ammo. The rest takes care of itself. If no on else knows where the targets are I'm cool with that too.

I know some people get carried away with choreography, but watch most shooters, once the buzzer goes off they don't even come close to what they "rehearsed."

I do realize it says no air gunning, I was just wondering if there was some logic behind it, because I've been shooting courses of fire long enough to know that there are ways to do the same thing without leaving the comforts of your chair.

No amount of practicing a stage will make up for a lack of practice and shooting skill

Any tips that are IDPA specific are appreciated.

[dirtypool40]

Frank makes a good point; you can choreograph all you want. All of us have a plan until the beep.

Also, I was talking with some guys who started shooting waaaay before I did and they related a story about Jerry Barnhart, famous for airgunning and meticulous prep. PLEASE bear in mind this happened back fifteen years ago and is not tolerated in IPSC anymore either.

So anyway, he gets called to the line. This was a 24 round stage and the "burner" shot it in something like 11 seconds. But knowing his habits they timed him from when he was told LAMR.

It took 12 minutes before he took the beep. Yes that's an extreme example, but illustrates the deep end of what Frank was saying.

[Mark Perez]

Airgunning is defined in the glossary as :

"The act of going through the motions of firing the CoF with a hand or pointed finger without a firearm in hand"

To understand the principle behind the rule , you need to go back to the beginning of IDPA - the little red book and how IDPA was first formed.

"In the beginning"

IDPA was promoted - mostly throught the gun rags , as the be all - end all practical shooting sport at a time when the new buzz word was (and remains) TACTICAL (insert sounds of trumpets here). At the time , everyone who had range access was a TACTICAL (trumpets again) instructor and CCW was taking foot across this great land of ours.

The gunrags were jumping on the TACTICAL (tadaaa) bandwagon and IDPA just happened to get in at the right time. Everything seemed geared to the CCW market - and for good reason , it was a market that had largely been ignored .

The BoD , many who had major roles in the shooting and TACTICAL (!) community set the tone , that since IDPA was supposed to be "defensive pistol" , there would not be the conga-line rehearsals that were prevalent in their counterpart. After all , when did a DGU ever get a warning-order prior to an assault?

The Green Book addressed airgunning with the "no sight pictures" in the beginning pages and our latest version of rules defines airgunning in a glossary!

Taking all that into context , any "act of going through the motions" would be construed as airgunning and that is what conflicts with the Purpose of the sport "..to test the skill and ability of the individual , not equipment or gamesmanship" and Principles

II. provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of each individual , not equipment and gamesmanship.

IV.Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulate potentially life-threatening encounters , or that tests skills required to survive life-threateing encounters.

my 2 cents ,

Mark

[dajarrel]

Here is another 2cents worth. No bashing, just observations on a game.

In order for IDPA to truly live up to it's desire to teach defensive shooting, no one should ever see the course before shooting it. Totally blind. The idea would be to train, which can be done at the range as well by teaching the IDPA "principles" of "slicing the pie". various types of reloads, etc.

Then, once one is fully indoctinated with the 'dogma' (just a word, don't get worked up over it) you shoot the courses without ever seeing them beforehand. After you have finished shooting, scores are totaled and the match staff announces everyone who survived and those who got their a$$es shot

It's great fun but a bit slow as no one but the SO"s go downrange until they have shot the CoF.

The course designers have to pay particular attention to the layout of the course to prevent '180' traps and such.

As long as there is a scorecard and a timer with posted winners and those who follow, it will be a game. If it wasn't a game, would folks show up to play??

Now to stay on topic, IMHO, if you are allowed to know your CoF (see your targets, walk through and see angles and target placement), and it isn't a blind stage, a little airgunning won't make or break you.

IDPA is alot of fun, but I really do prefer to go to the line with my 60-80 rounds of .40 on a 32 round stage and light 'em up.

FWIW

dj

[spiked]

At the local match I go to, the SO walks everyone through the course of fire, but in the stages where it is important, like clearing a house, only the first 2 or 3 people can see what is being talked about and how it applies. Now the rule books say no individual walkthroughs, but of course everyone who wasn’t privy to being the first in line during the group walkthrough ALWAYS walks through again, and I can guarantee they all are at least air gunning in their heads.

BTW, the rule against air gunning IMHO is not against practicing, it's about a group of people walking around with (potentially) loaded side arms and when you see someone aiming; your initial reaction would be to that of a real threat. It's a safety issue.

The rules at my local matches are selectively enforced. I had an SO tell me my holster was too far forward. I countered that I could fit a cigarette pack between him and his holster (C2F), that his pants where designed to hold the holster and gun at a specific angle (tactical only clothing F3), and that 4 out the 6 stages of the match violated the rules book (Cof2, Cof5, Cof18, Cof20). I don't think he was expecting to find someone that had actually read the rule book.

He then gave me a FTN penalty for a hiding target when I had a FTF (PP3b),

I kinda laugh it all off. Some take the one half of the rules they know too seriously. I'm just there to have fun.

Edited October 4, 2005 by spiked

[BigDave]

BTW, the rule against air gunning IMHO is not against practicing, it's about a group of people walking around with (potentially) loaded side arms and when you see someone aiming; your initial reaction would be to that of a real threat. It's a safety issue.

Safey issue? It is a miracle, then, that no one in a USPSA match has ever been shot because they felt threatened by someone airgunning during a walkthrough. This must be the same logic that was in place when the IDPA rulebook was re-written.

Yeah, it is in the rules and the rules must be followed. But, just because it is a rule doesn't make it practical, much less the right thing to do. And, just because it is in print doesn't make it immune from criticism.

Edited October 4, 2005 by BigDave

[Ted Murphy]

The powers that be didn't ban airgunning to be more practical or tactical, they just don't like it.

From a match admin standpoint, it does save some time, not a lot- but some.

Ted

[AWLAZS]

Our USPSA club would open its match up to IPDA shooters. We would wark the IDPA scoring rings out on ipsc targets with modified round count and range instructions to conform with IDPA rules. The only problem we had was that the IDPA shooters took longer to get through a stage because they had to discuss each shooters run as a group.

I have been a CRO at a few large USPSA matches If the Stage is run well airgunning only happens during the first 5 and during scoring. It does not slow the match down unless it is allowed to.

A rule is a rule if when you play a game but to say it slows the match down to airgun is a funny explanation.

[Genghis]

In order for IDPA to truly live up to it's desire to teach defensive shooting, no one should ever see the course before shooting it. Totally blind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

+1 fer shure.

Your score should not be based on how quickly you run through the course of fire. After all, your "score" in a gunfight will be the number of "you's" who make it through without getting hit (either 0 or 1). The time really doesn't matter.

We could hold the whole thing in a shooting house, with Simunitions, so the targets can move and shoot back. We could score everyone on the number of kills, with a DQ if you get hit.

I guess that would be more like paintball instead of IDPA, though. But if anyone starts a United States Shooting at Targets That Shoot Back Association, sign me up!

[dirtypool40]

Ok, so I am ranting a little, but it's meant as a comedic respite from serious discussion:

Genghis - What you're talking about sounds a lot like the NTI, the true KING of all subjective matches, where a commitee scores you in grand Monday Morning quarterbacking fashion. It's the expensive version of kids with squirt guns yelling "I got you, I got you." and then letting the babysitter and her friends decide who won the fight.

IDPA needs to separate itself from the notion that it is tactical TRAINING. Too often I hear instruction given on the range about the "truly tactical" way to shoot a stage by those that have no frame of reference. There are still those who scowl and threat scan and fantasize about being an "operator" every time they here LAMR. Reading an article by a guy, who knew a guy, that took a course from a guy who's roomate saw the movie SWAT, does not make you an expert, an operator or an instructor. Wearing a "LOOK!! Gun here!!" vest and quoting dogmatic sermons on tactics only makes you look silly.

We seem to keep losing sight of the simple fact that IDPA is a sport. To quote your quote of my early quote about what that guy said...IDPA does not TEACH defensive shooting, it's supposed to be a place to measure it fairly in competition.

We keep score, and being competitive by nature, we want to excel and win, some by cheating some by shooting well. The rules, and their administration especially, need to be such that fair objective competition is possible. Right now being heavy handed with subjective rules to punish a guy who's waxing your axx is just another form of cheating.

It's funny but that was supposed to be the basis for IDPA, a place where gun and foot speed mattered less than proficiency. We ain't there yet, but in forums like this we are trying to find ways to get there.

[Vlad]

The BoD , many who had major roles in the shooting and TACTICAL (!) community set the tone , that since IDPA was supposed to be "defensive pistol" , there would not be the conga-line rehearsals that were prevalent in their counterpart. After all , when did a DGU ever get a warning-order prior to an assault?

I cant tell if you are being sarcastic, but it is usefull to note that SWAT teams and the like use the time spent by negotiators to rehears their entry scenario over and over again, sometimes even building mockup of the area they are supposed to enter.

[Loves2Shoot]

Great posts, thanks for the info!

Any help on the whole "angles" thing and not looking at targets thing? Is it stage specific, any help from the rulebook.

It sounds like it would just be wise to walk around with hands in the pockets to be on the safe side.

[AWLAZS]

What do the trainers teach to every day gun users (cops) not the high speed guys. I know some of the people on this forum are training oficers. I know my guys give me a hard time when I teach tatical mag changes or mag retention changes. They tell me they would never do that on the street.

Sorry if this post does not realy go with the heading.

[ozzy1038]

To me the reason seems two fold. The first, as stated above is the prevention of rehearsing the course which leads to the more important reason of making it more of a real life scenario in which you typically go into blind, especially us civilians.

Loves2shoot - When you do the group walkthrough is when you can figure out your reloads, and sometimes they tell you when to reload. I.E.; engage T1-T3 with two shots each to C.O.M. then do a reload from slide lock and re-engage T1-T3 with one shot to the head. You get the idea.

Happy Shooting!!!!!

[spiked]

Safey issue?    It is a miracle, then, that no one in a USPSA match has ever been shot because they felt threatened by someone airgunning during a walkthrough. 

That could be, I've never been to a USPSA match. If I was, and someone was air gunning, and all of sudden pointed at me, I might very well respond in an reflex only manner.

Its a reaction that comes from being around too many NRA instructors and FBI agents that wouldn't know gun safety if it bit them in the 4ss. I assume from watching videos of some of the top shooters this is the case with them too.

[Flexmoney]

Safey issue?     It is a miracle, then, that no one in a USPSA match has ever been shot because they felt threatened by someone airgunning during a walkthrough.  

That could be, I've never been to a USPSA match. If I was, and someone was air gunning, and all of sudden pointed at me, I might very well respond in an reflex only manner.

Its a reaction that comes from being around too many NRA instructors and FBI agents that wouldn't know gun safety if it bit them in the 4ss. I assume from watching videos of some of the top shooters this is the case with them too.

I've been to a few USPSA matches. It has been my experience that in "real world" air gunning of stages...when faced with somebody pointing their finger at you...the natural "reflex" is to stop dead in your tracks and put your hands up. After all, you don't want to provoke somebody that has the drop on you with their finger...loaded or not.

[ima45dv8]

Safey issue?     It is a miracle, then, that no one in a USPSA match has ever been shot because they felt threatened by someone airgunning during a walkthrough.  

That could be, I've never been to a USPSA match. If I was, and someone was air gunning, and all of sudden pointed at me, I might very well respond in an reflex only manner.

Its a reaction that comes from being around too many NRA instructors and FBI agents that wouldn't know gun safety if it bit them in the 4ss. I assume from watching videos of some of the top shooters this is the case with them too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you describe the unsafe actions you viewed?

Those would be some interesting videos. Can you provide a link to them (if on-line) or a source where they can be purchased? I ask because I've RO'd a lot of "top shooters" at various state and area matches and haven't ever had the slightest cause for concern over their gunhandling skills.

[Ted Murphy]

I have only ever seen one instance of airgunning being unsafe. I was in a shoot house bending over to pick up a magazine when this guy almost as big as me, runs through the stage airgunning it. Since targets in the shoothouse were not low, he never looked down so he crashed into me. We nearly took out the entire stage.

Ted

[dirtypool40]

Flex and Ted, you guys crack me up. That is funny stuff.

ima45dv8 - I'm with you, the times I have been to a "Tactical" course were far scarier than all the times I have spent in competition. Gun handling is a perishable skill, and the top guys do it the most and have built pretty solid, safe albeit smooth and fast habits.

[andrewcolglazier]

What you describe below, if actually applied to a match, is exactly the kind of expansive "freelancing" of the rules which leads to shooters being dinged for infractions not to be found within the rules.

IMO, the rule against airgunning is quite clear: No Airgunning! To make the leap that "any act of going through the motions" is now considered airgunning has obviously expanded the rule with meaning not contained within the rule book!

This is my biggest pet peeve with some IDPA officials; they see something they consider against the rules, but isn't, but decide to crowbar the act into the wording anyway.

The purpose of not allowing airgunning has been well explained; it isn't in sync with a street DGU. The rule book says "No Airgunning!" If the powers that be want to expand that rule to include "No Choreographing either mental or physical is allowed!" then they should write that into the rule book. In the meanwhile, it ain't there.

Andy C.

Airgunning is defined in the glossary as :

"The act of going through the motions of firing the CoF with a hand or pointed finger without a firearm in hand"

The Green Book addressed airgunning with the "no sight pictures" in the beginning pages and our latest version of rules defines airgunning in a glossary!

Taking all that into context , any "act of going through the motions" would be construed as airgunning and that is what conflicts with the Purpose of the sport "..to test the skill and ability of the individual , not equipment or gamesmanship" and Principles

II. provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of each individual , not equipment and gamesmanship.

IV.Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulate potentially life-threatening encounters , or that tests skills required to survive life-threateing encounters.

my 2 cents ,

Mark

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[kruger]

I'm wanting to shoot an IDPA match this winter and don't want to pile up the penalties since I have to travel quite aways to get to one. Any tips are welcome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have three options AFAIK, Medford, Keno, and Eugene. Which one were you planning on visiting?

(I'm rooting for Eugene. The IDPA regulars think I (B class Limited USPSA) actually know something about shooting... I'd love to see them after you burn down a skills stage.)

On the main subject of this thread:

The tapers and setters aren't the only ones getting rehearsals.

The folks setting up stages get plenty of chances to rehearse the stage. After all they have to make sure that everything is where it needs to be.

As a match director, I have to go through the stages. I'm looking for safety issues and making sure that the COF makes sense. Part of that process is looking at the targets from where they will be shot, making sure that there is sufficient backstop behind them and that there are no props in the way, that there are no unintentional pass through issues, and that the muzzle safe points aren't broken. I get a defacto rehearsal.

Are the folks setting up and the MD airgunning? No. Are they getting to see the COF from the shooter's point of view prior to actually shooting the stage? Yes. Am I going to DQ or assign procedurals to myself and the setup crew? No.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

Edited October 5, 2005 by kruger

[Loves2Shoot]

We shoot the first Saturday also Do you know when Medford/Keno shoots? Can I bring my Uncle Mikes holster or do I need to buy an expensive approved one? $16 for the UM is hard to beat. I'm shooting an XD, but I could bring my Sig P226 because I have a Bladetech holster for it.

Thanks for the info guys!

Edited October 5, 2005 by Loves2Shoot