Recommendation on a 124gr. subsonic load using BE 86 or W231

[FALer]

Hey folks, I'm looking for a recommendation of a starting load, for suppressor use (Obsidian 45) with a CZ P09 that has a short throat.

124gr RMR round nose

BE 86 or W231 powder, (I also have Titegroup)

1.125" OAL

CCI #500 SPP

Brass can be anything, I have at least some of most brands.

 

I've got recommendations on good mid range to near max loads with BE 86, I'm just not sure where to start on the lower end. I don't have a chronograph.

Thanks in advance,

Nate

Edited September 5, 2019 by FALer

[Joe4d]

Without a chrono you are pretty much SOL,  BE 86 is kinda slow, I dont imagine it would do that well reduced that much. TG is more tolerant to low volume ,  As a fairly fast but bulkier powder I suspect 231 would hold accuracy best at lower velocity. But really without a chrono you are just guessing. 

[GMP]

I have used BE86 for some accurate but faster target loads in my P09 with RMR 115 and 124g bullets, but its not the powder for lower power stuff.  W231 is much more in line with that, although I use Sport Pistol which is roughly between W231 and Titegroup.   You would probably be better off working with 147g bullets and light charges of Titegroup for starters. 

[George16]

I used W231 with the RMR until I switched to sport pistol at the beginning of this year. 

 

Heres the chrono on my load of 4.1 W231, RMR 124 FMJ RN @ 1.125-1.128” OAL, WSPP

 

 

 

1073
1080
1055
1068
1074
1075
1058
1080
1070
1063
AVE - 1069
SD - 8
ES - 25
PF - 132.55

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by George16

[FALer]

Thanks for the responses folks, I've got what I feel is a good soft shooting suppressor load for RMR 147 grain match winners with titegroup. unfortunately I'd have to load those bullets at 1.09" OAL in my CZpo9. The bullet manufacturer recommends 1.13" OAL and I'm new enough at this to not go against manuf. recommendations. Gotta take the kids to school.

Edited September 6, 2019 by FALer

[MemphisMechanic]

Easy.

 

3.8gr titegroup, 1.100” OAL or longer, 124 gr coated bullet. Load to the longer end of what chambers in your gun.

 

Solid well known load, runs around 125-130 pf and is very much subsonic. You’ll see minimal velocity differences between 1.100” and 1.130” with that load, just a few FPS. 

 

Consider getting the barrel cut to let you load longer, too. I did all of my Walthers and can feed them even the grumpiest 147 out to 1.145” now.

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[GMP]

2 hours ago, FALer said:

Thanks for the responses folks, I've got what I feel is a good soft shooting suppressor load for RMR 147 grain match winners with titegroup. unfortunately I have to load those bullets at 1.09" OAL in my CZpo9. The bullet manufacturer recommends 1.13" OAL and I'm mew enough at this to not go against manuf. recommendations. Gotta take the kids to school.

 

There is a new profile in 115, 125, and 147  just out from Precision Bullets.  I have some 125s and 147s on the way to try.   The claim is much easier loading  longer for guns like CZs.   I have loaded a lot of RMR Match Winners and yes they need to be short.  The RNs are more forgiving.

[Yondering]

If you're loading for suppressor use, you're probably interested in finding a quiet load, which is another variable on top of the usual stuff about accuracy and soft recoil. Also, the "soft recoil" bit pretty much goes out the window when we're using a suppressor with a booster on it; the small differences in recoil between one powder and another are mostly overpowered by the booster.

 

With that in mind, I don't like any of the above mentioned powders for suppressor use; they all produce a sharper sound. The quietest suppressor powders I've found are not the usual suspects for competition shooting. My personal favorite is Green Dot, closely followed by American Select and Universal. Any of those three will do what you need for a 124gr suppressed load, and will be quieter than something like Titegroup. 

 

Keep in mind too that your pistol and suppressor may or may not cycle with a subsonic 124gr load. A tighter barrel lockup has more trouble cycling. I've got one G19 barrel that will cycle 125gr coated subsonics, but another barrel in the same gun that is more accurate but will not cycle them, it needs at least a 135gr bullet to cycle and stay subsonic. 

[FALer]

16 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Without a chrono you are pretty much SOL,  BE 86 is kinda slow, I dont imagine it would do that well reduced that much. TG is more tolerant to low volume ,  As a fairly fast but bulkier powder I suspect 231 would hold accuracy best at lower velocity. But really without a chrono you are just guessing. 

A chronograph is definitely on the short list of items to get.

And BE-86 is out as a candidate for 124gr. subs.

13 hours ago, GMP said:

I have used BE86 for some accurate but faster target loads in my P09 with RMR 115 and 124g bullets, but its not the powder for lower power stuff.  W231 is much more in line with that, although I use Sport Pistol which is roughly between W231 and Titegroup.   You would probably be better off working with 147g bullets and light charges of Titegroup for starters. 

I've got a few subsonic loads with Titegroup and 147gr bullets from 3.1gr to 3.4gr. they work great in my Glocks. I'll have to find a 147gr with an Ogive that my CZ like, or that can be loaded short.

13 hours ago, George16 said:

I used W231 with the RMR until I switched to sport pistol at the beginning of this year. 

 

Heres the chrono on my load of 4.1 W231, RMR 124 FMJ RN @ 1.125-1.128” OAL, WSPP

 

 

 

1073
1080
1055
1068
1074
1075
1058
1080
1070
1063
AVE - 1069
SD - 8
ES - 25

I'll play with your w231 load above. I gotta get some sport pistol, but can't find it locally

[FALer]

10 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Consider getting the barrel cut to let you load longer, too. I did all of my Walthers and can feed them even the grumpiest 147 out to 1.145” now.

 

I will definitely get the barrel/throat/leade cut to allow it to chamber longer bullets. What's the right way to say what your proposing? "Reaming the throat"?

And who is doing that work that you folks would recommend?

8 hours ago, GMP said:

 

There is a new profile in 115, 125, and 147  just out from Precision Bullets.  I have some 125s and 147s on the way to try.   The claim is much easier loading  longer for guns like CZs.   I have loaded a lot of RMR Match Winners and yes they need to be short.  The RNs are more forgiving.

I'll have look at those.

[FALer]

4 hours ago, Yondering said:

If you're loading for suppressor use, you're probably interested in finding a quiet load, which is another variable on top of the usual stuff about accuracy and soft recoil. Also, the "soft recoil" bit pretty much goes out the window when we're using a suppressor with a booster on it; the small differences in recoil between one powder and another are mostly overpowered by the booster.

 

With that in mind, I don't like any of the above mentioned powders for suppressor use; they all produce a sharper sound. The quietest suppressor powders I've found are not the usual suspects for competition shooting. My personal favorite is Green Dot, closely followed by American Select and Universal. Any of those three will do what you need for a 124gr suppressed load, and will be quieter than something like Titegroup. 

 

Keep in mind too that your pistol and suppressor may or may not cycle with a subsonic 124gr load. A tighter barrel lockup has more trouble cycling. I've got one G19 barrel that will cycle 125gr coated subsonics, but another barrel in the same gun that is more accurate but will not cycle them, it needs at least a 135gr bullet to cycle and stay subsonic. 

I didn't even think about the  cycling issue. I'll just get somebody to supersize the barrel so it'll take the biggies. Seriously what's the right way to say it?

You've gotten my attention with better sounding powders, Bi mart has Green Dot, would it be a good choice for 147gr also. Are you talking about a lower tone?

Edited September 6, 2019 by FALer

[Yondering]

Yes, a lower and flatter tone. It's hard to describe of course, but the sharpness of the tone makes a big difference. What we want is a dull "thwack" or "pffft" sound instead of a sharper snap. With some powders that are bad for suppressed sound (WSF is a good example), the sound level is still a suppressed shot, but can have such a sharp snap that it actually rings my ears a bit. For subsonic 9mm that's not acceptable at all IMO with a good suppressor; my quiet loads sound a lot like a kid's pellet gun. 

[Yondering]

Figured I might as well post this pic here for discussion as well. The bullets in the pic are all lined up with the case mouth as they are normally seated when loaded, and the weights of each marked above. This demonstrates the difference in case capacity between different bullet designs, and shows that case capacity does not correlate very well to bullet weight even when the designs look somewhat similar. This is why a chrono and working up the correct charge weight for your bullet are so important.

 

BTW all of these get coated except the two commercial bullets - the 147gr Aardvark and the 158gr Bear Creek. The rest are my own designs except the 135gr which is a modified Mihec 125gr mold. 

 

[G19g26]

Will CFE PISTOL be good for a 124gr suppressed load?

Thanks

[AHI]

No it would be filthy.

[ysrracer]

9mm: 124gr Xtreme RN: Win 231 4.25gr: Fed Case: OAL 1.145

Digital Link

Para 1911 5"

 

Temperature:75° F   

Pressure:30 in Hg   

 

Bullet Weight:124.0   

Power Factor Average:131   

Power Factor Low:130   

Power Factor High:134   

 

Number of Shots:10

Minimum:1052

Maximum:1083

Spread:31

Average:1061

Standard Deviation:10

 

Custom Attributes

PowderWin 231 4.25gr

CaseWin

PrimerRem SPP

BulletXtreme 124gr RN

OAL1.145

GunPara 5" 1911

 

#VelocityFt/lbsPower FactorDate

10 1063 311.1013112/7/20 12:38 PM

9 1053 305.2713012/7/20 12:38 PM

8 1060 309.3413112/7/20 12:38 PM

7 1061 309.9313112/7/20 12:37 PM

6 1078 319.9413312/7/20 12:37 PM

5 1054 305.8513012/7/20 12:37 PM

4 1083 322.9113412/7/20 12:37 PM

3 1059 308.7613112/7/20 12:37 PM

2 1055 306.4313012/7/20 12:37 PM

1 1052 304.6913012/7/20 12:37 PM