Limited Gun Capacity

[jkushner1]

Just rec'd my new CZ 75 TS .40 to compliment my CZ 75 ST IPSC .40 from Angus Hobdell. Angus tweaked her for me installing the lighter Comp Hammer, Alloy Trigger and Fiber Optic Front Sight (a couple notes - the ofm walnut grips are thinner profile than those that came with the ST IPSC, TS Mag capacity, although the same basic tube as the older ST IPSC 16 round mags, holds 17 rounds via a different spring coil and slightly extended base pad.

My question is this. Is it really relevant or damtaically superior for a C shooter trying to make B to have 18-20 rds capacity. I have the Taylor +2 base pads on my ST IPSC 16 Rd mags making 18 round but had to dremel the OFM magwell significatly. I don't want to do that to the new TS. So I'm going out with 17+1 and will try to make "B". I know 1 round mag capacity may account for 1% of what it will take for me to be classified "B" in limited. Things like scoring (a novel concept), accuracy, splits, and target transition and strategy are what will count in my opinion. I guess I have answered alot of my own question, really just wanted to see if any viewer really felt that extra round or two was critical.

Thanks,

Jon

[Loves2Shoot]

You could make GM with 16 round mags, 18 rounds is plenty. Since arays should have no more than 8 shot per array, 16 round is two arrays of eight, more rounds are nice but not needed. You might be better off, cause you just have to make each shot count No getting lazy.

Edited September 16, 2005 by Loves2Shoot

[sfinney]

As far as "making B", as most classifiers are 10 round friendly, your mag capacity shouldn't really hold you back any.

As far as being a "competitive B", thats a different story - IMHO 17 vs. 18 rounds won't make much if any difference for you in most matches.... its all up to you to make sure you don't need to many extra shots

Now, if you could "+2" those 17 round mags, and get 19 rounds..... 19, over 17 or 16, is worth having. But you certainly don't NEED 19 rounds to be competitive. Rather than worry about capacity, shoot a few more practice rounds, dry fire.... from my experience, the biggest thing to get from C to B is stop shooting Mikes and NS, and just a little bit quicker. Do that, and start shooting more A's, and now your'e on the way to A, and so forth.

Those CZ ST and TS guns are real neat setups, let us know how it works out for you.

[eerw]

Don't really think the one or two rounds are critical to working on your classification..as most classifiers are in the 12 to 18 round range..if 18 rounds..usually there is space to reload..

as far as shooting matches and the overall..the 1 or 2 rounds may be more important..

if you can..I would probably convert one or two mags to fit the TF+2 pads..and leave the others as 17+1.

[JFD]

I've never shot a classifier where mag capacity was an issue. I'm sure they're out there, but I've never shot one.

I got my L-10 B card (65.706) with my SS .45 Kimber and shot damn near the exact same percentage using the same gun in all but 1 classifier for my Limited B card (65.656). I'm guessing that I could stick a dot sight on the Kimber and get an Open B card fairly easily (OK, maybe I'd need a SS Open gun).

The only "problem" you'll have is less options on certain stages compared to those with more rounds in the mag. How often this happens is up to those who design the stages you shoot. Generally speaking I doubt it will be much of an issue.

I've shot 1 stage where mag capacity was a big deal. A simple 22 round stage where I scored much higher than I deserved simply because I'm shooting a Para with 21 + 1 capacity.

Edited September 16, 2005 by JFD

[folsoml]

In most stages, your going to have to do one reload anyway. So 16 or 18 round mags really don't matter that much, the only difference will be where you end up making that one reload.

[dirtypool40]

There are a couple (like Times Two) where I think you need at least 12 rounds, but I don't think any more would be a big advantage in a classifier.

Like a bunch of guys are saying it can be done with less. I made "B" in LIM before there was L10 with a Kimber carry gun. I felt pretty tough too, classified at 70.3% at my second IPSC match ever. Then the high caps ate my lunch for two years.

[Al Capizzo]

The main thing mag capacity does in a match is give you a little more flexibility.

You have more options about where to change a mag rather than being forced to do a mag change at a certain position.

This is very apparent when shooting L-10, but with 17 rds. you won't see this issue too much.

Al

[SRT Driver]

The new rule book says 9 rounds per array so 18+1 might be an advantage in some cases but not on classifiers.

Just reload in the right spot!!

I'd take a reliable 16 rd mag over a finicky 18 rnd mag any day.

Edited September 20, 2005 by SRT Driver

[Stuck in C]

It shouldn't make any difference in classifiers, but as mentioned above it gives you a lot more flexibility in field courses. I have an older CZ IPSC STD and use the Taylor-Freelance +2's, but I modified the base pads instead of the magwell. Just shaved the edges of the pads with a razor knife until they fit in the well. They now work perfectly for 18 rounds with the old style spring and follower. I felt better modifying a $30 doller pad instead of an $800 gun.

[Ron Ankeny]

On field courses, more is obviously better as long as reliability is never compromised. I wouldn't want to shoot a limited gun with 18 rounds in this day of 9 round arrays featuring Texas Stars, long shots on steel, double swingers behind steel hardcover, etc. Sure a person shouldn't miss, but face it, we all miss a plate on a star from time to time or tink the steel hard cover on double swingers, etc. Not being able to shoot a couple of 9 shot arrays with a make up round available on each array, and still have one in the gun, isn't something I would do if I had other options.

Edited September 21, 2005 by Ron Ankeny

[38superman]

If your main concern is moving up in classification, the best way to do that is work on your fundamentals and eliminate penalties.

Magazine capacity is not a factor in most classifier stages.

However, overall scores on major matches do count as classifers.

In a match anything can happen.

I'm a firm believer that even 1 or 2 extra rounds can and will make a difference.

For example:

While shooting a long field course in lim10, I failed to notice a mag falling off my belt.

I went to make my last reload and my belt was empty.

I grabbed a spare mag from my hip pocket, but it was only a 7 round mag leaving me two rounds short of finishing the stage.

I have had stages where I took extra shots at swingers or steel and ran the gun dry at the end with one popper still standing.

This happened because I didn't remember to use my "Barney" bullet and began the stage with 19 rounds instead of 19+1.

If every round didn't count, the open crowd would be shooting 40's instead of loading 38 supers to the extreme so they can stuff the big sticks with a few extra rounds.

When it comes to mag capacity, size does matter.

Tls

Edited September 21, 2005 by tlshores

[moverfive]

It wasn't too long ago that single-stack open guns were quite common, and of course single-stack limited guns prior to Limited-10. Back then folks would complain about the advantage the hi-caps had over everybody, blah, blah.

What many folks don't remember is that a single-stack gun won the first limited nationals, and I think the first two. And this was when hi-caps were widespread and very much in use. For some reason Barnhart and Leatham just chose to shoot single stacks.

Also, some places like Hawaii can only have 10-round magazines. Yet several of us made M and GM in open and limited there.

Granted, the more the gun will hold the better, but my point here is that the capacity of your magazines is not holding you back in either classifiers or matches......especially at the C class level.

[Derek45]

I agree, a good single stack can get you a B card, in LIM or LIM-10, if you go smooth and get good hits.

When it come to shooting matches, it's always nice to have lots of BBs in the gun !

[iweiny]

Not to blow my own horn but... I got my highest classification recently (58%) in Limited with an L10 gun. I have often wondered if I could be competitive in Limited. It was a local match and I got 85% of the B class shooter who won. My personal belief is that if I can get my reloads to be spot on the 10rd limit will be a non-issue. And as I am here in PRK (Poeples republic of Kalifornia) I don't have much choice anyway.

As far as classifications are concerned I had the same question you had. If you put your L-10 HF into the limited calculator at Ohios web site I think you will find the same percentage for both divisions.

Ira

[GeorgeInNePa]

I agree with everyone on the classifiers, it won't matter.

For matches?

You want as many rounds in the gun as you can get. There is a reason everyone with an .40 STI or SVI has at least 1, maybe 2, 20rd mag(s) that work. Everyone makes mistakes and it's better to have an extra round or two than it it is to be forced into a flat-footed, static reload. It also may give you the option of doing the reload where you WANT to do it, instead of where you NEED to do it, important on the larger courses at big matches.

Just my opinion.

[GuildSF4]

As previously stated by others for classifiers capacity normally is irrelevant.

For matches more is better, (especially major matches), I have done 2 reloads on a 36 round stage with mags that hold 18 rounds to prevent a standing reload, if I had 20 round mags I would have only done 1 reload.