Schutzenmeister Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Maybe this will make you feel better. In Florida, there is a mandatory three day wait when purchasing a pistol. People who possess a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit are exempt from this wait, but gun toting law enforcement officers are NOT! Explain that one to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Poetic justice ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iweiny Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 I don't feel that I've taken an antagonistic tone. Maybe I've got a lost cause in trying to defend "these people," but just because some shooters play the game to win doesn't mean other ways of playing the game are invalid (as long as you're safe about it).I have also seen shooters purposefully take procedural penalties because they did something that they felt was correct, according to their previous training. They are playing the game too, their way. As long as they aren't trying to impose their will upon you, I don't have a problem with it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry, I did not mean to imply the way "you" said anything but rather how some of these things are said on the range. Good natured ribbing among friends does not count. I think the problem is always when some person whether it be the "gamer" or the "mall ninja" says things in a tone which feels like it is a judgement from "on high" looking down on you. Again sorry, I agree with the rant that some play the game as a game, some play as traning, some, like me, kinda do both... Will it get me killed, I hope not as I hope never to be in a situation where I have to use my gun like that. But will I be able to shoot, reload, and move with my gun safe, fast, and acuratly. I think more so now than before USPSA. Sorry, Ira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Will it get me killed, I hope not as I hope never to be in a situation where I have to use my gun like that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The FBI statistics I've seen show that the vast majority of gun fights involving civilians are 1 on 1 fights, carried out at less than 10 yards distance, involved 3-5 rounds total, and are generally won by the guy who gets off the first shot. Seems like IPSC is *PERFECT* training for the statistically likely scenario, as is IDPA, etc.... but, I digress.... anything more than one target is statistically not "real world", so... Its certainly prudent to be schooled in how to handle more than that, but there's a certain school of thought that says you ought to find a way out, rather than try to fight a battle meant for a platoon sized force single handedly.... folsoml - work on getting those FL laws changed. You guys need instant check, anyway, but it's asinine that an LEO can't purchase a firearm like a CHL holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 It's interesting that there are ample consulting opportunities with various federal agencies for people like Voigt, Garcia, Barnhart, Jarrett etc. but that none of these agencies seem to be seeking out the grizzled tough as nails veterans of mall food courts <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dude, sometimes you just knock one out of the park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folsoml Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 folsoml - work on getting those FL laws changed. You guys need instant check, anyway, but it's asinine that an LEO can't purchase a firearm like a CHL holder. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The problem is that, unlike a lot of folk's perceptions, most cops are NOT gun people. They have the gun they were issued and that's it. It does not concern them that they would have to wait three days because they have no intention of buying one in the near future anyway. Concealed Permit holders, on the other hand, usually ARE gun people, and have lobbied appropriately for what they want. You are right on track though, it is asinine. I faced this the other day went I went to pick up my new open gun (partially my FFL's fault for not doing the paperwork when I got the license from him prior to having it shipped). Like, if I was angry with someone I: 1st: Would not get my revenge with the gun that was on my hip when I walked in, and 2nd: Would buy a custom built compensated .38 super with an Aimpoint sight to do my dirty work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 FWIW, talked to a local Police Academy instructor one day about cops that don't like to shoot. He said he read a study once where they tagged it "Danger Avoidance". Not going to the range was a form of denial. For certain people going to the range to train is a reminder that there is an element of danger in their job and they may be shot at someday. Not shooting except when they have to is a way to keep any concerns/fears to a minimum. Not the answer for all cases but interesting nonetheless. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Then you have the other end of the spectrum, where they have access to their department's ammo locker, and use up copius amounts of police ammo practicing for USPSA competition.... bastards... At least they know how to shoot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folsoml Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Then you have the other end of the spectrum, where they have access to their department's ammo locker, and use up copius amounts of police ammo practicing for USPSA competition There is something to be said for having a boss who supports your team (or...his team...actually). Not going to the range was a form of denial. For certain people going to the range to train is a reminder that there is an element of danger in their job and they may be shot at someday. Not shooting except when they have to is a way to keep any concerns/fears to a minimum. ...as Col Dave Grossman would say, "Baaaa." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 A clarification...I have not nor will I ever have a problem with a military/LEO coming out to one of our matches and shooting it with their duty gear in a way that helps them prepare for their real world. Those folks and a few others like them live in a different "real world" than I do so if they want to practice low crawling up behind a target in a ghillie suit and taking them down with a bayonet, that's fine by me. The people I'm laughing at are the ones more like me. I'm just your average overweight white guy computer nerd living in the suburbs who happens to enjoy IPSC. The most dangerous moment of my day occurs when I'm getting out of the shower every morning and I do my best not to slip and roll my fat @$$ out across the bathroom floor. I've never once had a LEO/military type try to teach me a more tactical way of doing things because they understand the difference between their reality and mine even better than I do. It's the 50 year old accountant loudly telling everyone who will listen about the best way to eviscerate your "enemy" with a pink mag brush that gets to me. Sometimes they're good for a laugh but when there are new shooters around thinking that the mall ninja speaks for all of us...well then it's just embarassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 The FBI statistics I've seen show that the vast majority of gun fights involving civilians are 1 on 1 fights, carried out at less than 10 yards distance, involved 3-5 rounds total, and are generally won by the guy who gets off the first shot. Seems like IPSC is *PERFECT* training for the statistically likely scenario, as is IDPA, etc.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oddly enough, that's part of why I tend to prefer the "short" courses over the "long" courses. Short courses ... say 6-9 rounds taking 3-5 seconds are probably more realistic in that respect. Long courses (32 round house-clearing or 1/2 mile long runs through jungles) are situations to be avoided in real life ... even if you're IN Special Forces! FWIW, talked to a local Police Academy instructor one day about cops that don't like to shoot.He said he read a study once where they tagged it "Danger Avoidance". Not going to the range was a form of denial. For certain people going to the range to train is a reminder that there is an element of danger in their job and they may be shot at someday. Not shooting except when they have to is a way to keep any concerns/fears to a minimum. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Two things come to mind on this: 1 - I hope their lives never actually depend on their gun handling skills, and more importantly 2 - I pray to the gods MY life never depends on their gun handling skills ... Just an opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iweiny Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 The people I'm laughing at are the ones more like me. I'm just your average overweight white guy computer nerd living in the suburbs who happens to enjoy IPSC. The most dangerous moment of my day occurs when I'm getting out of the shower every morning and I do my best not to slip and roll my fat @$$ out across the bathroom floor.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> LMFAO... I can relate to that... Ira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Long courses (32 round house-clearing or 1/2 mile long runs through jungles) are situations to be avoided in real life ... even if you're IN Special Forces! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's what I was refering to in calling in an Air-strike... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folsoml Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 2 - I pray to the gods MY life never depends on their gun handling skills ... I probably would have put that one 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 2 - I pray to the gods MY life never depends on their gun handling skills ... I probably would have put that one 1st. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1st would be - I pray to God that I'm never accidentally anywhere near them while they're handling their gun - PERIOD. I know a couple of guys back in Atlanta who did firearms training for the Fulton Co. Sherriff, and another who did a lot of private training. Body armor was mandatory for them on the range... I've been known to joke that, w/ some cops, you might be safer standing next to the perp.... I've also known quite a few cops who were exceptional shooters (mostly guys who were old school and got real training, or who were competitive shooters of some sort) - and I always follow that joke up with this statement. I really hate that we don't think police protection is important enough to fund better training - and to pay cops what their job is worth to us, so that it might attract more people who care about the *whole* of the job, and not just pieces of it. I wouldn't think it would be too much to ask for a cop to be proficient with all the tools of his/her job, especially those that are important to their safety or that could be dangerous to them or innocent bystanders (this includes weapons, hand to hand, the car, their body armor, etc). Apparently it is, for all the various reasons discussed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 That's what I was refering to in calling in an Air-strike... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As a retired AF weeine, who spent the last 5 years of my carrer at installations with lots of buried, vertical runways, I can relate. Give me the coordinates ... We'll dial them in and if it's not totally and absolutely vaporized in 30 minutes or less, the next one is free! ICBM ... Global Thermonuclear Projection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folsoml Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Give me the coordinates ... We'll dial them in and if it's not totally and absolutely vaporized in 30 minutes or less, the next one is free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Give me the coordinates ... We'll dial them in and if it's not totally and absolutely vaporized in 30 minutes or less, the next one is free! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'll bet it's even on time delivery as well, huh? dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktyler Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 QUOTEThis is the excuse--emphasis on the word "excuse"--that many cops use to avoid coming out and getting their a$$es handed to them by a bunch of civilians. I really hate to admit this but it is very true. I have been a LEO for over 8 years and a firearms instructor for about 5 of that. BUT... I have been shooting IPSC for about 13 years. When an officer that seens people like Dep. Chuck Anderson or myself shooting or doing sims they always asks "how can I do that". I always invite them to train with me. But the always sheepishly decline the offer. Except for a few officers that realize and accept they can always learn more and hunger for knowledge. After training with some of the Israeli guys, I know IPSC skills are very important in a real gun fight. Multiple rounds on multiple threats quickly is how they stay alive on real missions year round. One thing that does keep LEO's from coming is the "question guy". The one that finds out your a LEO and has to ask you questions all day regarding when he can shoot someone. Do your LEO shooters a favor, if you see this happening try to get the question guy to chile out. Ktyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 One thing that does keep LEO's from coming is the "question guy". The one that finds out your a LEO and has to ask you questions all day regarding when he can shoot someone. Do your LEO shooters a favor, if you see this happening try to get the question guy to chile out. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nobody likes *that* guy, anyhow..... Sounds like some of your LEO shooters are encountering the subject of this thread!!! That's too bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 (edited) Give me the coordinates ... We'll dial them in and if it's not totally and absolutely vaporized in 30 minutes or less, the next one is free! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I like it... Especially since the 16"er's are mothballed... Edited September 17, 2005 by GuildSF4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 (edited) Those folks and a few others like them live in a different "real world" than I do so if they want to practice low crawling up behind a target in a ghillie suit and taking them down with a bayonet, that's fine by me. ... I've never once had a LEO/military type try to teach me a more tactical way of doing things because they understand the difference between their reality and mine even better than I do. It's the 50 year old accountant loudly telling everyone who will listen about the best way to eviscerate your "enemy" with a pink mag brush that gets to me. Sometimes they're good for a laugh but when there are new shooters around thinking that the mall ninja speaks for all of us...well then it's just embarassing. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Darn straight.. If you don't go around buying drugs or hanging out in bad places for the average middle-class suburbanite, IPSC is real life. I've shot several hundred thousand rounds in practice and matches, but never had a need to even aim a pistol at anybody 'for real' (though I have been glad to have a CHL a few times, the situation was resolved long before 'two-to-the-body..' time). Edited September 18, 2005 by shred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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