Carry optics and production HHF

[Chrisyoung]

I was play with the classifier calculator when I noticed that the HHF for production and carry optics are the exact same. i was expecting the HHF for carry optics to be higher just based on me experimenting with a dot on my production g34.

[Beef15]

Apparently there's not enough GM level CO folks shooting classifiers to have HHF data unique to the division.

 

When it was introduced with production plus whatever percentage there were even less. Like less than 10 GMs for a couple years.

[lstange]

Actual average hit factors are higher for Carry Optics than Production. On high hit factor stages there is pretty much no difference, most of it is coming from points on the low hit factor stages. Time is about the same.

[Chrisyoung]

4 minutes ago, lstange said:

Actual average hit factors are higher for Carry Optics than Production. On high hit factor stages there is pretty much no difference, most of it is coming from points on the low hit factor stages. Time is about the same.

That exactly what I was see in my experiments. times were very close but I shot more points with the dot.

[Joe4d]

classifiers generally are terrible at predicting match performance,,, Most of them should be deleted. They tend to almost always be low round neutral,,  so you with a 10 round mag and me with a 23 with similar skill, will come out with similar scores on a classifier,,, but I'd smoke you for lunch heads up at an actual match... 
Club I shot in HI ( a 10 round state) only offered open and limited ( not L10) on the classifiers,, figured when I got stateside my class would jump up when I could use standard mags.
Nope ,

exact same classifier scores.

[Chrisyoung]

2 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

classifiers generally are terrible at predicting match performance,,, Most of them should be deleted. They tend to almost always be low round neutral,,  so you with a 10 round mag and me with a 23 with similar skill, will come out with similar scores on a classifier,,, but I'd smoke you for lunch heads up at an actual match... 
Club I shot in HI ( a 10 round state) only offered open and limited ( not L10) on the classifiers,, figured when I got stateside my class would jump up when I could use standard mags.
Nope ,

exact same classifier scores.

While I agree with you on magazine capacity not affecting classifier scores my comparison was with a iron sight  and a optics on the same gun witch will should and do have different scores (with me behind them)but the current HHF for the classifiers dont reflect that.

[Joe4d]

thats because classifiers reward accuracy, reloads,  weak hand only, strong hand only.. yadda yadda... Basically not skills that really affect scores on the typical track meet run and gun stages we tend to see.
Typical match, moving , getting into position, and getting on target quickly is important. Speed from position to position is important. Red dots are great for picking up new targets quick as they come into view.
Typical classifier is a stand and shoot, targets in open,,  reload, accuracy game, with targets in plain view square to the shooter.  Pistol INDEX, plays a bigger role and the reddots advantages are diminished.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Joe4d

[lstange]

25 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

classifiers generally are terrible at predicting match performance

Looks good to me:

[MHicks]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

classifiers generally are terrible at predicting match performance,,, Most of them should be deleted. They tend to almost always be low round neutral,,  so you with a 10 round mag and me with a 23 with similar skill, will come out with similar scores on a classifier,,, but I'd smoke you for lunch heads up at an actual match... 
Club I shot in HI ( a 10 round state) only offered open and limited ( not L10) on the classifiers,, figured when I got stateside my class would jump up when I could use standard mags.
Nope ,

exact same classifier scores.

 

Except that a limited shooter isn't directly competing with a production shooter in a match. Sure we can look at the overall for fun to see where you placed against everyone. I would hope a shooter with 23 round mags would gain something over a similarly skilled shooter with 10 rounds.

[Joe4d]

but the op WAS comparing different divisions. By using raw hit factors in his question. Of why are production and CO classifier  hitfactors very close, yet actual match results arnt.
My answer, because classifiers dont test the things that give an advantage to higher capacity and red dots. But those things are pretty common on actual matches.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

Of why are production and CO classifier  hitfactors very close, yet actual match results aren’t

 

He didn’t mention match results - nothing about anything other than classifier stage results themselves.

 

You read that into it because you had a point you wanted to make.  

[lstange]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

why are production and CO classifier  hitfactors very close, yet actual match results arnt. My answer, because classifiers dont test the things that give an advantage to higher capacity and red dots.

It's not just actual match results that are different. Actual observed hit factors on classifiers are different, too. And capacity has nothing to do with it since classifiers have mandatory reloads. Most people just shoot more accurately with the dot.

 

CO high hit factors are not yet based on actual CO performance, apparently because there isn't enough data accumulated yet. Hence they use the same HHFs as Production. As a result, if you want to level up it's considerably easier to do shooting CO than Production, at least for now. It probably won't last long, I expect CO HHFs to go up in the next HHF update. Steel Challenge already adjusted their peak times by half a second.

[Chrisyoung]

1 hour ago, lstange said:

It's not just actual match results that are different. Actual observed hit factors on classifiers are different, too. And capacity has nothing to do with it since classifiers have mandatory reloads. Most people just shoot more accurately with the dot.

 

CO high hit factors are not yet based on actual CO performance, apparently because there isn't enough data accumulated yet. Hence they use the same HHFs as Production. As a result, if you want to level up it's considerably easier to do shooting CO than Production, at least for now. It probably won't last long, I expect CO HHFs to go up in the next HHF update. Steel Challenge already adjusted their peak times by half a second.

Thanks that's the best way its been explained. It's going to be interesting to see just how high the HHF go when they are updated. 

[pskys2]

Well remember the HHF is set by, mostly, the upper tier GM's.  Those GM's won't see a huge difference in their HHF's based on gun type.  Well quite a bit between a Revolver and Open score, but not so much between other platforms.

Since a CO is a Production with an optic, unless the classifier is a really tough, long range one it would be safe to expect the top tier GM to shoot similar scores.

[waktasz]

There is at least one classifier where Production HF is higher than CO. I forget which one it is at this point and it's possible it's been fixed with the latest "adjustment" 

[Tanders]

I would say transitions are a fair bit easier in CO, especially on longer shots since you don't have to shift focus between the front sight and the target when you're using a dot.  Just look where you want the bullet to go and wait for the dot to show up at that spot (assuming you have a solid index).