New 1911 Division

[GENE S]

With the new 1911 division starting up in Jan of 2006, what class should a shooter put himself in when he signs up ? Same as L-10, because there is not a lot difference in the two ?

Gene

[Jim Norman]

My understanding is that the new SS division is just that a new division and there are no classifiers as of yet. Also, if the provisional division is not accepted, your classifers will disappear, they will not be transfered over to L-10.

For my part, I think that the provisional rules should dow two things, Use your L-10 Classification and second, IF the division is not accepted, then any classification shot should be pulled over to L-10.

In other words, treat it during the provisional phase more as a "Catagory" than a seperate divisoin.

Jim Norman

[folsoml]

There is something about it in the current Front Sight. I believe I read that it will not have separate classification, and that it will be the same as your limited 10 class.

[dogdoc]

The rules on the web page state that you will be put into your highest classification.

[Gary Stevens]

The reference to L-10 in the Front Sight article was for anyone who does not already have a classification. They should sign up in L-10 for their initial classification as that division is the closest we have to the 1911 division.

Once you have a classification, of any kind, the highest one on file will be used for the next three years.

Gary

[MikeFoley]

Gary,

Will the classifiers you shoot under this division be recorded?

[Gary Stevens]

They will be archived. If at the end of the test period the division is accepted as a full real time division, then the scores can be recalled and entered.

Gary

[bgary]

Since the classifiers will go into the system as "L10" classifiers, is there a way of flagging them (either on paper, or in the computer at Sedro) so that, someday, they could be pulled out of L10 and used as "SS" classifiers?

Bruce

[Gary Stevens]

It is my understanding from talking to Dave Thomas that any classifiers shot in 1911 will be uploaded, via the modification on EZWS, as such. The program will pull them out and archive them for future use if needed. They will not be uploaded as L-10, except for an initial classification. There will be a slot in EZWS for 1911 division.

Gary

[Jim Norman]

And if a shooter in the next three years makes Master or GM in the new SS division and the division is not accepted, are we saying that the shooter will revert to U? I am supposing that the shooter is a newcomer to USPSA and not a crossover from annother division.

Jim Norman

[AikiDale]

Worst case Jim he would have to shoot 4 classifiers in another division to get his GM card back. Or, just win an Area match....

[Alan Meek]

Jim,

Actually he will not make grand master in the SS division. But in three years we might see individuals jump from C class to GM overnight.

Alan

[Gary Stevens]

Jim they will not be moving up or down in the 1911 division in and of itself. They will be using their highest assigned classification from any of the other divisions. Now if they have an "A" class as their highest classification now, and six months from now they make "M" then their new class in the 1911 division is now "M". If the division is not accepted, they still have what they have always had. Nothing more, nothing less.

Gary

[GENE S]

Some can of worms that I opened.

Gene

[Jim Norman]

Jim they will not be moving up or down in the 1911 division in and of itself.  They will be using their highest assigned classification from any of the other divisions.  Now if they have an "A" class as their highest classification now, and six months from now they make "M" then their new class in the 1911 division is now "M".  If the division is not accepted, they still have what they have always had.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to be obtuse here.

Lets say I am a C L-10, I decide I want to shoot my SS exclusively. for the next three years I practice and shoot SS, I turn in classifers ONLY in SS. At teh end of 3 years, IF SS is approved, I will receive a new class, lets say M. BUT if SS is not accepted, all my classifers for that three year period are trash?

Yes, I understand I could then MAYBE shoot a special classifer match and jump overnight from C to M in L-10. But then again, I may not. Why can't we and I suppose this is too late, simply accept the SS Scores then into L-20 which is for all intents and purposes virtually identical.

THis would seem to me to make shooting this division more attractive so that IF it fails we are not penalized, but at the same time encourages more people to come in and shoot. As it stands, IF the divison is accepted great, but if not, the shooter has idled for three years. THis is probably more importatnt to the shooter that can only make one match a month. Here I am lucky enough to be in an area where I actually can choose which match to shoot and have more available matches than time.

Jim Norman

[GENE S]

Gary

Do you realy feel that is right to shoot in your HIGHEST CLASS

which for most people will be ( OPEN ) ??? Not ALL, but MOST.

Why not U or in L10 which is very close to the new SS 1911 division.

We wnat people to come into this sport and try it out, not chase them away. If I have to shoot B and amy only C in L-10, I am at a disavantage. Lets make it fair.

Gene Sutton

[Gary Stevens]

There is no simple answer to all of this that will please everyone, as Jim and others are quick to point out. That being said, I felt it was better to err on the highest classification than the lowest classification. An individual might be a high "C" class shooter in Limited (or whatever) just out of making the jump to "B" class. However, he might be a "D" class shooter in Revolver (not at all uncommon in my experience). If he jumped into 1911 he would be a "D" class for the next 3 years, when he was almost ready to jump to "B" class with his Limited gun. If he progressed any at all over the next 3 years, the shooter might be so far out of the "D" class statistics to have a grossly unfair advantage over other "D" class shooters.

Now I know someone could, and probably will, come up with a variety of scenarios where some other outcome would occur that is just as bad. It was a judgment call, right or wrong, only time will tell.

Thanks for asking though.

Gary

[Ron Ankeny]

It was a judgment call, right or wrong, only time will tell.

Not that means much, but I think it was the right call.

[Gary Stevens]

Ron you may be sorry you said that. There is not much place to hide in the boat

[Bergie]

Gary

Why don't we use 1 class below your highest classification, whatever it may be?

That's how you do it when you are not classified in a particular division.

For example, if I'm an A in open, then I'm automatically a B in L-10 even if I'm only 55% in L-10.

Alot of women are classified higher in open and cannot make that classification in any other division because of the recoil control.

If it were one class below our highest class in SS it would be a whole lot more realistic.

Just a suggestion.

I'm all for the Single Stack division. I hope it flies.

Thanks

[paraman1]

Yeah , this is just what USPSA needs , another division . I just pack all my guns to the range and sign up for whatever class I have the least competition in so I can win .

I am all for fairness but I feel like this is just pandering to all the whiners who feel like they can't compete because of their equipment . Whatever happened to guys like Jim Wall who made GM in Limited using a single stack 1911 and kept on kicking butt with POS pistols and IWB holsters because he had practiced until he COULD .

If you want a to shoot your SS 1911 , L-10 should provide you with a perfectly acceptable class .

[MikeFoley]

Paraman, this has already been argued to death when it was only a concept. This thread is in the rules forum, and is a discussion of classification, not the existence of the division.

It is a provisional division, and may become a division in 3 years. Gary Stevens came up with this idea to try to get crossover shooters from other sports (IDPA) and guys who have that SS at home and don't shoot USPSA already. There are a fair amount of shooters out there who are turned off by the race gun scene and have no interest in it. L10 is just a race gun category just like Open and Limited. It is an obvious choice for people who live in capacity restricted states, or those who want to use race other guns that are themselves capacity restricted. This division is about the single stack 1911 from Production style holsters and pouches.

[kimel]

This kinda sounds like it could be a lot of fun. Been pondering buying something for Production but wanted to stay Single Action. Now this is just the excuse I need to buy another 1911.

[Ron Ankeny]

Whatever happened to guys like Jim Wall who made GM in Limited using a single stack 1911 and kept on kicking butt with POS pistols and IWB holsters because he had practiced until he COULD .

I think guys like that have been replaced by Limited shooters who download their fat guns to shoot a class below their actual ability level, lol. Seriously though, that perception exists, good, bad, right or wrong. I would hate to see a similar perception evolve about SS division if folks are classed below their ability level. I know that's an over simplification, but it's the way I feel and that's why I support the notion of using a shooter's highest classification.

There is also the issue of unclassified shooters earning their provisional classification by shooting Limited 10 classifiers. It doesn't make sense for a person to shoot into B class (for instance) with SS gear, then be placed into C class in SS Division.

[John Dunn]

Slight thread drift, but I'd support the idea of using your highest classification for all divisions. If you can shoot Limited A, you're sandbagging shooting Production B, same for other divisions. If you are concerned about your placement, practice works better than complaining.