Did I make the right call?

[bimmer1980]

13 hours ago, Stony Lane said:

I was at this match.  We were the first squad to shoot this stage and we started with the door closed.  I appreciate the efforts of both the new match director and the new RO.  Without volunteers like you both, these matches could not be held.  I say, “Shake hands and move on together.”

thumbs up!

14 hours ago, Sarge said:

In local matches where this occurs I would say it should specify somewhere on stage description, WSB, RO notes, etc. when you walk in a room and it’s hanging open and MD can’t tell for sure how any squad other than his shot it, there is a problem. Yes, I was there, on the squad, and I gave my opinion.

The RO leads the squad from stage to stage? Well, if i found it open, i would also think it has to stay open. 

 

[pskys2]

On 5/15/2019 at 4:10 PM, RolexJohn said:

 

Well, I wouldn't describe this as "winging it."  Again, it was Easter Sunday, and this stage was already causing backups.  You can say that valuing expediency over competitive equity at a Level I was the wrong call - I'll accept that.  

 

The larger lesson to be learned here, I think, is how important it is that RO's have radios.

 

If it was backing up the squads already, would it be that you observed the previous squads shooting it?  

Option 1:

If the WSB didn't specify, but the previous squad was observed shooting it a certain way, did you ask them how they observed their previous squad?

If so and all were shooting it a certain way, shoot it that way.

Then get the first shooter of your squad to find the RM and determine what was the proper way and change the WSB for the following squads.

Option 2:

Read the WSB, follow it, shoot the COF and accept that the designer/md/rm screwed up in not clarifying the issue and that some personalities will get upset because you gamed the stage.

Which to my mind is not much worse than the smugness some show when they game a stage that is questionable or extreme.

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, pskys2 said:

If it was backing up the squads already, would it be that you observed the previous squads shooting it?  

Option 1:

If the WSB didn't specify, but the previous squad was observed shooting it a certain way, did you ask them how they observed their previous squad?

If so and all were shooting it a certain way, shoot it that way.

Then get the first shooter of your squad to find the RM and determine what was the proper way and change the WSB for the following squads.

Option 2:

Read the WSB, follow it, shoot the COF and accept that the designer/md/rm screwed up in not clarifying the issue and that some personalities will get upset because you gamed the stage.

Which to my mind is not much worse than the smugness some show when they game a stage that is questionable or extreme.

I don’t think anybody saw it shot before we went in. Finding the MD would involve getting in the truck and driving down to the range to find him. So, we just went by WSB. 

  This is what happens when something like this gets posted. If you don’t shoot at this club you don’t know the layout, you don’t know the MD, you don’t know what the WSB looked like, you don’t know what the indoor range looks like, you don’t know what the stage looked like, etc.

 To top it all off, all scores got counted anyway. At the end of the day the port was insignificant. Everybody around here has shot 2-3 matches since then and moved on. 

[lcs]

On 5/16/2019 at 10:15 PM, Sarge said:

Except the MD has been there for years.

 

Yes, he has been a MD for many years and this is the FIRST complaint.  He has also worked many majors and a National.  Been a certified CRO for 12 years.  The MD was all of 2 minutes away.  The RO in question took at least that long or longer discussing with squad members "what to do" 

 

The staff made a hell of an effort to put on a match when one of ranges was 6 inches in mud and had to rearrange stages to make sure everyone could have a good time.

 

Out of all the BS in this thread......The one thing the RO forgot to mention was that he HELPED build the stage with the port,  There was even discussion about drilling the walls togeather to support opening the port.  Why the hell would all of that be done to leave the port open............................

 

Do you need the WSB to tell you to reset the steel, put the steel back on a Texas Star...Just a few examples of "things you just know"

 

 

[RJH]

25 minutes ago, lcs said:

 

Yes, he has been a MD for many years and this is the FIRST complaint.  He has also worked many majors and a National.  Been a certified CRO for 12 years.  The MD was all of 2 minutes away.  The RO in question took at least that long or longer discussing with squad members "what to do" 

 

The staff made a hell of an effort to put on a match when one of ranges was 6 inches in mud and had to rearrange stages to make sure everyone could have a good time.

 

Out of all the BS in this thread......The one thing the RO forgot to mention was that he HELPED build the stage with the port,  There was even discussion about drilling the walls togeather to support opening the port.  Why the hell would all of that be done to leave the port open............................

 

Do you need the WSB to tell you to reset the steel, put the steel back on a Texas Star...Just a few examples of "things you just know"

 

 

 

Burn

[IHAVEGAS]

55 minutes ago, lcs said:

 

Yes, he has been a MD for many years and this is the FIRST complaint.  He has also worked many majors and a National.  Been a certified CRO for 12 years.  The MD was all of 2 minutes away.  The RO in question took at least that long or longer discussing with squad members "what to do" 

 

The staff made a hell of an effort to put on a match when one of ranges was 6 inches in mud and had to rearrange stages to make sure everyone could have a good time.

 

Out of all the BS in this thread......The one thing the RO forgot to mention was that he HELPED build the stage with the port,  There was even discussion about drilling the walls togeather to support opening the port.  Why the hell would all of that be done to leave the port open............................

 

Do you need the WSB to tell you to reset the steel, put the steel back on a Texas Star...Just a few examples of "things you just know"

 

 

 

Hard to imagine how a long term MD would not know to include the most basic details on a WSB. Some stages are doors and ports open and some are not,  it is absolutely not something "you just know", not to say that a particular club might not have their own local traditions. I usually see stuff left open when you want to help smooth out the flow of the stage or leave a sneaky shot from a choice of positions, closed when you want to force a person to a specific position or just add more activity to a stage. Their are other reasons sometimes related to r.o. traps and etc. , it is something that is sometimes changed after the stages are complete and the md goes over things and gives them a final check. 

 

[HCH]

If the MD wanted the door open, he should have tied it, taped it, wired it, put a stake in the ground, or zip tied it open. Or make it clear during shooters meeting that the door is to be shut at the beginning of the stage. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

Burn

 

2 hours ago, lcs said:

 

Out of all the BS in this thread......The one thing the RO forgot to mention was that he HELPED build the stage with the port,  There was even discussion about drilling the walls togeather to support opening the port.  Why the hell would all of that be done to leave the port open............................

 

Well, that vital info was not mentioned by the RO when it was being discussed. Seems we may have been played.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

 

Well, that vital info was not mentioned by the RO when it was being discussed. Seems we may have been played.

 

Were you the head guy at "the battle of the bluegrass" about 4 years or so back that required a Friday (mostly R.O.'s) squad to reshoot a stage in the morning because the WSB didn't clearly specify starting condition of the gun and the r.o.'s on the squad didn't interpret it the same way the stage designer did.?

And then later in the day required our squad to reshoot another stage for a similar reason? 

 

Nobody gets played, it wasn't the first time the folks in charge had seen the stages, but if the WSB is bad then this stuff happens.

 

The thing I learned is to always supply your own lunch. After the morning whole squad reshoot our squad got to the lunch wagon late and all they had left was these little Cole slaw cups thingies. Rookie mistake. 

 

Edit: 2014 , not sure who the head cheese was. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by IHAVEGAS

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Were you the head guy at "the battle of the bluegrass" about 4 years or so back that required a Friday (mostly R.O.'s) squad to reshoot a stage in the morning because the WSB didn't clearly specify starting condition of the gun and the r.o.'s on the squad didn't interpret it the same way the stage designer did.?

And then later in the day required our squad to reshoot another stage for a similar reason? 

 

Nobody gets played, it wasn't the first time the folks in charge had seen the stages, but if the WSB is bad then this stuff happens.

 

The thing I learned is to always supply your own lunch. After the morning whole squad reshoot our squad got to the lunch wagon late and all they had left was these little Cole slaw cups thingies. Rookie mistake. 

 

Edit: 2014 , not sure who the head cheese was. 

I worked almost every BITB but never "ran" anything more than a stage. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I worked almost every BITB but never "ran" anything more than a stage. 

 

My screw up. For some reason I always thought you were the guy in the golf cart for those matches.

 

Edit: Whoever it was he was a bit gruff at the start of the match and then more mellow after the first reshoot oopsie and then down right friendly after the second one  . 

Edited May 19, 2019 by IHAVEGAS

[RolexJohn]

Well, that vital info was not mentioned by the RO when it was being discussed. Seems we may have been played.

 

Wow. I just got back from the World Speed Shooting Championship. I certainly didn’t expect that this thread would still be active.

 

Actually it’s not vital information or at all relevant. Except to demonstrate how much volunteer effort I put into the match beyond just being an RO, and was still treated poorly. And for the record I declined the customary concession of being “comped” for the match. I paid the same match fee that everyone else did.

 

I never saw a WSB while carrying in walls. Yes, when carrying in and setting up walls, we deliberately placed the one wall with the port that had a hinged door in a specific position on the stage. It did appear as though the intention was for the port door to be closed. But when your squad walks into the room where the stage is set up, and the port door is open, and someone asks “ does the port door have to be closed?” and you read the written stage brief to the squad, which does not state the condition of the port door, what do you do? Particularly when you’ve got four certified ROs and the section coordinator all in agreement that if the condition of the porch door is not specified in the WSB, then it’s up to the shooter.

 

But speaking of omitted details Larry, I notice that you failed to mention that when you rolled up on your cart to ream me out in front of the entire squad, myself and my squad were rebuilding the classifier stage that the squad before us had torn down before our squad had a chance to shoot it. I wonder how that possibly could’ve happened?

 

The entire match was quite the dumpster fire of administrative problems. Hard to believe an MD and CRO with all the years of experience you’re always quick to remind people you have could have allowed such things to take place. It’s also laughable to suggest that this is the first complaint you’ve ever received. After you drove away on your cart everyone just shook their heads and said “ that’s Larry.” Some were heard to say “that’s why I will never RO a match here.” There’s no shortage of people that I’ve talked to that have an inexcusable story about some run in with Larry.

 

I said it before and I’ll say it again. I don’t think I made a bad call, and what I did was supported by the rules. I think there’s an argument that can be made that I should have gone out to find Larry to fix the problem in the WSB. Radios people...radios. Particularly if there’s not going to be an RO walk through.

 

The larger issue here is how Larry chose to handle it. Hopefully he chooses to hand over the reins to others sooner than later. I’ve heard way too many stories like this one that of happened other people.

 

As far as I’m concerned the matter is closed.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, RolexJohn said:

As far as I’m concerned the matter is closed.

I have to agree. This is getting way too personal.

 

The lesson here is to communicate as well as we can.