Flagging pcc - hammer down sequence

[egd5]

What is the most current correct rule on the sequence of hammer down and flagging the pcc after unloading?  An ro friend says that there is a new rule that the sequence MUST be hammer down, then flag. That means you have to close the bolt, then hammer down, then re-open the action just far enough to insert the flag without cocking the gun again. Why not insert the flag after you show clear, close the action on the flag, then hammer down?

[egd5]

Well, I guess I should have tried to find the answer myself first. 8.3.7 clearly says "if clear, hammer down, flag"

Still seems like 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another, but......  them's the rules.

[ChuckS]

21 minutes ago, egd5 said:

What is the most current correct rule on the sequence of hammer down and flagging the pcc after unloading?  An ro friend says that there is a new rule that the sequence MUST be hammer down, then flag. That means you have to close the bolt, then hammer down, then re-open the action just far enough to insert the flag without cocking the gun again. Why not insert the flag after you show clear, close the action on the flag, then hammer down?

"If clear, hammer down, flag".  The whole idea is to let the hammer drop on the chamber just like with pistol. Then you are abso-friggin-loutely sure the gun is not loaded. The fact that the hammer is re-cocked when you open the chamber to flag it is not relevant. Read 8.3.7

Edited March 28, 2019 by ChuckS

[Sarge]

Not a NEW rule. It’s always been that way. Out of curiosity will a hammer drop if the bolt is closed on a flag? 

[JohnStewart]

Also keep in mind that sometimes chamber flags are not inserted into the barrel, just into the magwell, blocking the bolt. When I inquired the reasoning, the competitor explained that it was necessary because the barrel could get so hot that it could damage/melt the chamber flag.

When I first noticed this practice at one of my matches I emailed Troy to clarify if that was permitted, and he confirmed that it was indeed allowed - providing the reasoning that since the hammer had already fallen then you are assured the gun is unloaded.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NickBlasta]

30 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Not a NEW rule. It’s always been that way. Out of curiosity will a hammer drop if the bolt is closed on a flag? 

 

Yeah. There's no lockup on a blowback gun so once the bolt clears the hammer it will drop regardless if the gun's in battery or not.

[Sarge]

35 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Yeah. There's no lockup on a blowback gun so once the bolt clears the hammer it will drop regardless if the gun's in battery or not.

Didn’t know that. Thanks!

[ATLDave]

The rule* is just trying to stay parallel to the handgun procedure.  At the "hammer down" command, the shooter is being required to prove that the gun is empty... not with a visual inspection, but by dry-firing it.  The flag is analogous to a holster - it's not a substitute for proving the gun is empty.  You prove the gun is empty, then you holster or flag.  

 

*Well, the authors of the rule.

[bret]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

The rule* is just trying to stay parallel to the handgun procedure.  At the "hammer down" command, the shooter is being required to prove that the gun is empty... not with a visual inspection, but by dry-firing it.  The flag is analogous to a holster - it's not a substitute for proving the gun is empty.  You prove the gun is empty, then you holster or flag.  

 

*Well, the authors of the rule.

A flag is not the same as a holster.

 

This is where people get the idea they can wave their PCC around and sweep themselves and others.

[StealthyBlagga]

1 hour ago, bret said:

A flag is not the same as a holster.

 

This is where people get the idea they can wave their PCC around and sweep themselves and others.

 

I think he was just making an analogy to explain the sequence rationale.

[StealthyBlagga]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

Didn’t know that. Thanks!

 

Actually, this is true for all AR15-platform guns - the fire control group has no closed bolt disconnector like you would find on a pistol. Even the locked breech rifle-caliber variants can have the hammer dropped while out of battery, but they avoid OOB discharge by having the firing pin be too short to reach the primer until the bolt is fully closed.

 

Other rifle/PCC designs may or may not prevent hammer/striker drop when OOB.

 

Just another reason why rifles are so much more interesting than pistols 

Edited March 28, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[ATLDave]

2 hours ago, bret said:

A flag is not the same as a holster.

 

This is where people get the idea they can wave their PCC around and sweep themselves and others.

It's analogous to a holster in the end-of-course sequence.  You are correct, of course, that just because a PCC has a flag doesn't mean people want to see down the muzzle.  Believe me, I'm one of the people that thinks USPSA did a less-than-stellar job in coming up with the rules integrating PCC into the game from a logical consistency standpoint.  

[mreed911]

3 hours ago, ATLDave said:

It's analogous to a holster in the end-of-course sequence.  You are correct, of course, that just because a PCC has a flag doesn't mean people want to see down the muzzle.  Believe me, I'm one of the people that thinks USPSA did a less-than-stellar job in coming up with the rules integrating PCC into the game from a logical consistency standpoint.  

 

No, "vertical and flagged" is analogous to a holster, "bagged" is a holster.  The rules require this for a reason.

[ATLDave]

Fair enough re: the vertical point.  

[StealthyBlagga]

20 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

No, "vertical and flagged" is analogous to a holster, "bagged" is a holster.  The rules require this for a reason.

 

Not exactly.

 

Held vertical and flagged is a stricter standard than holstered. If I am carrying a PCC in my hands muzzle-down and "reasonably vertical" per the rules, and the muzzle points at someone's feet, that is a DQ (rule 10.5.19). If I am wearing a holstered pistol, resting my hand on it or not, and the muzzle points at someone's feet, that is totally OK.

 

Unloaded and bagged for both guns is equivalent. You can carry in the hand and the muzzle can point in any direction without consequence.

 

I'm not arguing that any of the above is a problem, just clarifying that PCC shooters are subject to stricter gun handling rules than handgun shooters.

 

Interesting technicality: The glossary defines "sweeping" thus:

 

Sweeping: Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body, while holding it in the hands, or placing it on or removing it from an object. There may be an exception for RO interference.

 

It would appear that allowing a PCC's muzzle to point at the competitor's (or anybody else's) feet is OK provided the PCC is hanging from a sling "reasonably vertical" and not being held in the hands. I'm not suggesting this is a good practice, but an example of how a handgun-centric rules set leaves gaps. Perhaps we should consider making slings mandatory and treating a slung PCC as fully equivalent to a holstered pistol. Doing so would allow us to eliminate the whole bagging/unbagging area issue and have everyone holster/sling up in the Safety Area just like the good old days. Think of the benefits - faster loading/unloading, ability to use the same start positions as handgun, no more "wahhhh - he swept me" drama. I'm warming to the idea. 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[bret]

1 hour ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Not exactly.

 

Held vertical and flagged is a stricter standard than holstered. If I am carrying a PCC in my hands muzzle-down and "reasonably vertical" per the rules, and the muzzle points at someone's feet, that is a DQ (rule 10.5.19). If I am wearing a holstered pistol, resting my hand on it or not, and the muzzle points at someone's feet, that is totally OK.

 

Unloaded and bagged for both guns is equivalent. You can carry in the hand and the muzzle can point in any direction without consequence.

 

I'm not arguing that any of the above is a problem, just clarifying that PCC shooters are subject to stricter gun handling rules than handgun shooters.

 

Interesting technicality: The glossary defines "sweeping" thus:

 

Sweeping: Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body, while holding it in the hands, or placing it on or removing it from an object. There may be an exception for RO interference.

 

It would appear that allowing a PCC's muzzle to point at the competitor's (or anybody else's) feet is OK provided the PCC is hanging from a sling "reasonably vertical" and not being held in the hands. I'm not suggesting this is a good practice, but an example of how a handgun-centric rules set leaves gaps. Perhaps we should consider making slings mandatory and treating a slung PCC as fully equivalent to a holstered pistol. Doing so would allow us to eliminate the whole bagging/unbagging area issue and have everyone holster/sling up in the Safety Area just like the good old days. Think of the benefits - faster loading/unloading, ability to use the same start positions as handgun, no more "wahhhh - he swept me" drama. I'm warming to the idea. 

 

 

If the muzzle of the PCC sweeps anyone even if slung, it is a dq.

[StealthyBlagga]

30 minutes ago, bret said:

If the muzzle of the PCC sweeps anyone even if slung, it is a dq.

 

True - but read the definition of "sweeping". Per the rules, the circumstances I describe appear not to satisfy the definition of "sweeping". I'd arbitrate it just for fun and eagerly await another Troy Facebook Ruling 

Edited March 29, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[mreed911]

5 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

True - but read the definition of "sweeping". Per the rules, the circumstances I describe appear not to satisfy the definition of "sweeping". I'd arbitrate it just for fun and eagerly await another Troy Facebook Ruling 

 

10.5.19: "...sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted..."

[guns_and_labs]

On 3/28/2019 at 10:26 AM, ATLDave said:

 coming up with the rules integrating PCC into the game from a logical consistency standpoint.  

I am not sure that it is possible to integrate PCC into a pistol match from a logical consistency standpoint. Inconsistent co-existence is all one can really hope for.

And I still think it's a bad idea to allow the chamber flag to not be in the chamber.

[StealthyBlagga]

1 hour ago, mreed911 said:

 

10.5.19: "...sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted..."

 

Agreed, but read the definition of "sweeping" in the glossary:

 

Sweeping: Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body, while holding it in the hands, or placing it on or removing it from an object. There may be an exception for RO interference.

 

Per this definition, if the PCC is not being held in the hands, the infraction of "sweeping" cannot occur.

 

Even more confounding - this definition appears not to exclude the possibility of sweeping while a firearm is bagged (if the bagged firearm is in the hands). The only "sweep-proof" place a firearm can be is a handgun holster (per rule 10.5.5.1).

 

We are all fond of claiming rules should be enforced as written, not as we think they should be. Don't shoot the messenger (or even sweep him).

Edited March 29, 2019 by StealthyBlagga