Quick Question about FTSA Penalties and Multiple Strings

[euxx]

Unless dnroi is rm/md where i am roing i will just use the rulebook, not tea leaves and such

Sure. As an RO you are allowed to use your own judjement and knowledge of the rules. You can try, but don't have to be right. RM and DNROI will be the making final call. Nothing to discuss there either.

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, euxx said:

Sure. As an RO you are allowed to use your own judjement and knowledge of the rules. You can try, but don't have to be right. RM and DNROI will be the making final call. Nothing to discuss there either.

Just cause DNROI says up is down, doesn't make it so. Sorry you seem to think it should 

[AlphaCharis]

1 hour ago, jstagn said:

What about not engaging a popper. Mike plus procedural?

Yeah, if you are 100% sure he didn't engage it  -  it is a Mike plus FTSA.  But it wouldn't be a "general procedural" for "not following the WSB". 

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, euxx said:

Sure. As an RO you are allowed to use your own judjement and knowledge of the rules. You can try, but don't have to be right. RM and DNROI will be the making final call. Nothing to discuss there either.

It true that DNROI has the final say, but until it's published in a manner that aligns with USPSA process, an email carries no weight.

As we are supposed to do, I'll wait for an official ruling to be published on the USPSA website, or a blurb in his FrontSight column, or a change to the rulebook.

Unless and until one of those things happen, nothing has changed.

[euxx]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

Just cause DNROI says up is down, doesn't make it so. Sorry you seem to think it should 

 

An RM/DNROI call at the match does make up is down. Regardless what I think.

 

But it is interesting that you guys do object to FTSA penalty applied between strings, but don't object to any other procedural penalties carrying between strings. Remember the minimum stage points you can get at the course of fire is Zero as per rule 9.5.6. But penalties you've got on 1st string do subtract points from the 2nd string. As far as I know it been scored like that for 30 years...

 

On a side note. IPSC got rid of this issue by removing multiple separately-timed string from the stage. You can pretty much get the same result when separate strings run as separate stages.

[RJH]

25 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

An RM/DNROI call at the match does make up is down. Regardless what I think.

 

But it is interesting that you guys do object to FTSA penalty applied between strings, but don't object to any other procedural penalties carrying between strings. Remember the minimum stage points you can get at the course of fire is Zero as per rule 9.5.6. But penalties you've got on 1st string do subtract points from the 2nd string. As far as I know it been scored like that for 30 years...

 

On a side note. IPSC got rid of this issue by removing multiple separately-timed string from the stage. You can pretty much get the same result when separate strings run as separate stages.

1.2.2.1 Standard Exercises – Courses of fire consisting of two or more separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire for each component string may require a specific shooting position, procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

 

 

We don't object to the procedural penalty stuff because it is actually in the rulebook, but you can probably call and get a clarification to change it to how you like.

 

And if i got those FTSA penalties i believe i would arb it with the rulebook and win, so no, up is not necessarily down

Edited March 27, 2019 by RJH

[euxx]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

1.2.2.1 Standard Exercises – Courses of fire consisting of two or more separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire for each component string may require a specific shooting position, procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

 

We don't object to the procedural penalty stuff because it is actually in the rulebook, but you can probably call and get a clarification to change it to how you like.

 

1.2.2.1 does not explicitly say if penalties need to be deducted from each string or from everything. The issue still stands.

[RJH]

30 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

1.2.2.1 does not explicitly say if penalties need to be deducted from each string or from everything. The issue still stands.

 Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results.

 

Kinda what this says here, scores and penalties are accumulated, that means added up, that means all of them over the whole course of fire, no matter how many strings.  Are you French Canadian and English not your first language?   Don't worry i am not sure English is DNROI's first language either, he will probably be able to get you a clarification to say whatever you would like.  

 

The trick is understanding that the course of fire is everything that happens from "make ready" to "range is clear"  so any penalties, points, etc., are for that stage total.  Which also means if you shot at a target during that stage at least once according to the rules an FTSA doesn't apply, regardless of which string it was in.  But you know that is just from the rulebook, make stuff up all you want, at this point i really don't care

[euxx]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results.

 

Kinda what this says here, scores and penalties are accumulated, that means added up, that means all of them over the whole course of fire, no matter how many strings.  Are you French Canadian and English not your first language?   Don't worry i am not sure English is DNROI's first language either, he will probably be able to get you a clarification to say whatever you would like.  

 

The trick is understanding that the course of fire is everything that happens from "make ready" to "range is clear"  so any penalties, points, etc., are for that stage total.  Which also means if you shot at a target during that stage at least once according to the rules an FTSA doesn't apply, regardless of which string it was in.  But you know that is just from the rulebook, make stuff up all you want, at this point i really don't care

 

Thank you for explaining me the basics. One may wonder how I missed all that in my 10+ years working on the scoring software for various shooting competitions, including one that you all using at USPSA matches.

 

But said that, you are still ignoring rule 9.5.6, which does explicitly refers to strings, regardless of English not being my first language.

[RJH]

48 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Thank you for explaining me the basics. One may wonder how I missed all that in my 10+ years working on the scoring software for various shooting competitions, including one that you all using at USPSA matches.

 

But said that, you are still ignoring rule 9.5.6, which does explicitly refers to strings, regardless of English not being my first language.

 

We get it, you are a computer whiz and you like to tell us 

 

9.5.6 mentions strings because sometimes strings are taped and scored between each string, although i have never seen it done.  I actually mentioned this early on in this thread as the one exception that i possibly saw about the FTSAs, idk the rule i quoted, you can page back if you want. So there are rules pertaining to that, too.  And we are still at the point that i no longer care

 

 

[NickBlasta]

You do score certain penalties by string because the rulebook says to, like extra shots, or mandatory reload failures.

 

The exception for FTSA is written into the FTSA rule.

 

9.5.7          A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

 

As the COF is not over till all strings are completed, you do not tally FTSAs per string.

[euxx]

9 hours ago, RJH said:

We get it, you are a computer whiz and you like to tell us 

 

I'm aint no wizard, but I do find it funny when you try to explain me the basics of USPSA scoring.

 

9 hours ago, RJH said:

9.5.6 mentions strings because sometimes strings are taped and scored between each string, although i have never seen it done...

 

I yet to see strings scored individually. Some RO may enter hits after each strings, but they are still scored together (and that's where DNROI response fits well). It wasn't supported when you scored on paper, and not supported in EzWS and then PractiScore inherited the same thing. All penalties and even noshoots are scored for entire course of fire and not for individual string. Compare that with Steel Challenge scoring.

[euxx]

9 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

You do score certain penalties by string because the rulebook says to, like extra shots, or mandatory reload failures.

 

You still score these penalties for entire stage. For example penalties you get while scoring first string can zero out all your other strings. With per-string scoring that would not be the case, as rule 9.5.6 says - the lowest result of the string is Zero.

 

A believe everyone here understand that rule book has several inconsistencies, so DNROI have to give some interpretations.

[DKorn]

10 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

You do score certain penalties by string because the rulebook says to, like extra shots, or mandatory reload failures.

 

The exception for FTSA is written into the FTSA rule.

 

9.5.7          A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

 

As the COF is not over till all strings are completed, you do not tally FTSAs per string.

 

Interestingly, 10.2.7 does not say “in a course of fire”. Doesn’t change my opinion, but interesting to note. 

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, euxx said:

 

But it is interesting that you guys do object to FTSA penalty applied between strings, but don't object to any other procedural penalties carrying between strings.

 

that's because the rules specifically state that FTSA applies only to stages, and not to strings.

 

I don't really care one way or the other as long as it's consistent, but it seems to me it would be wiser to be consistent in agreement with the words in the rulebook, rather than consistent while ignoring the meaning of the words in the rulebook.

[euxx]

28 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that's because the rules specifically state that FTSA applies only to stages, and not to strings.

 

The FTSA rule 9.5.7 refers to a course of fire and not a stage. And other parts of rule book refer to string as to courses of fire. That's where most of this confusion is coming from.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, euxx said:

 

The FTSA rule 9.5.7 refers to a course of fire and not a stage. And other parts of rule book refer to string as to courses of fire. That's where most of this confusion is coming from.

IMHO strings aren't course of fire because they aren't started and finished with the range commands that start and finish a course of fire. 

 

Most of this confusion is coming because troy decided something that is contrary to what every experienced RO, CRO and RM has been doing for years. So now you have a few people that have heard of his interpretation, and everyone else doing it the way the rulebooks says. Confusing. But not something I really care about except to argue on the internet. If you forget targets in a stand and shoot classifier, you are already hosed.

[RJH]

2 hours ago, euxx said:

 

I'm aint no wizard, but I do find it funny when you try to explain me the basics of USPSA scoring.

 

 

I yet to see strings scored individually. Some RO may enter hits after each strings, but they are still scored together (and that's where DNROI response fits well). It wasn't supported when you scored on paper, and not supported in EzWS and then PractiScore inherited the same thing. All penalties and even noshoots are scored for entire course of fire and not for individual string. Compare that with Steel Challenge scoring.

6.1.something or other says a stage other than standards will be  a single string (paraphrased), so the lowest the score on that string could be is 0. So a stage can consist of one string or many strings, but a string is always a component of a course of fire, and FTSAs are applied to a course of fire. And that is all just according to the rulebook no special readings or interpretation. I  don't know anything about steel challenge scoring. And I still no longer care

[happygunner77]

6.1.1 String – A separately timed component of a stage. Except for Standard Exercises (see 1.2.2.1), a stage will be considered a single string.  Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless the course of fire specifies that they shall be recorded, and the targets taped between strings.  The time component of all strings will be totaled, and the results achieved are then tallied to produce a final stage result. 

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, RJH said:

And if i got those FTSA penalties i believe i would arb it with the rulebook and win, so no, up is not necessarily down

 

I believe you would win.

 

we almost arbed an up-is-down decision at A3, but someone talked some sense into him before I returned with the form and my hundo. Those things happen sometimes. That's why we have an arbitration process (so far, lol).

Edited March 27, 2019 by motosapiens

[NickBlasta]

3 hours ago, euxx said:

 

The FTSA rule 9.5.7 refers to a course of fire and not a stage. And other parts of rule book refer to string as to courses of fire. That's where most of this confusion is coming from.

 

Appendix A3 Course of fire (Also “course” and “COF”) An expression used interchangeably with “Stage”.

 

:)

[DKorn]

Just received an additional email from Troy:

OK, so I have to back up a bit on that answer.  After discussing it with the instructor corps, and doing a little research into the rules concerning VC and FT scoring, we agree that if engaged in the first string, the target is engaged for scoring purposes, even if it's not shot at during the second or any subsequent strings in the stage.  Therefore, my answer was incorrect.   I apologize for the confusion.  I'll write this up in Downrange, the USPSA magazine, and the NROi blog.

 

Regards,

 

Troy

[ima45dv8]

And the world once again rests securely on it's proper axis.

 

[ChuckS]

This is good since there was no way that I was going to give an FTSA on a target that was obviously SA...

 

[DKorn]

It’s nice to know that DNROI is willing to admit that he’s human and makes mistakes sometimes, especially when the ruling goes completely against the way the actual rules are worded.

 

If he wanted to rule the way he originally did, he would’ve needed to make some kind of official change... or clarification.