CZ Shadow2 - IPSC Production - how to reach flatness

[xdf3]

Hello

I'm trying to find the best combination possible to have good splits (from 0.10 to 0.20) for targets among 4-12 yards.

Most of it will be personal, but I'm sure there is an optimal range of Power factor, Speed and Spring strength.

I'm trying 10Lb with 132 Pf (124 grains) and it seems to be a good combination, but not the best. 
I am not sure it's consistent either. I guess using 115 grains with the same power factor (more FPS) will work better. Anyone with experience about this?

[Rnlinebacker]

Hello
I'm trying to find the best combination possible to have good splits (from 0.10 to 0.20) for targets among 4-12 yards.
Most of it will be personal, but I'm sure there is an optimal range of Power factor, Speed and Spring strength.
I'm trying 10Lb with 132 Pf (124 grains) and it seems to be a good combination, but not the best. 
I am not sure it's consistent either. I guess using 115 grains with the same power factor (more FPS) will work better. Anyone with experience about this?

I follow Ben Stoeger's teaching and at 5 yards splits should be 0.20 for alphas all the way up to 0.25 for 15 yards. I use a 2011 gun so I can typically beat the slightly with my trigger configuration.

Grip is THE most important part of achieving fast splits with accurate hits. Your palms should be crushing the grip. Practice doing doubles at differing distances and learn what your limits are.

As far as ammo, you want a load that snaps your sight back to ZERO(where it started) quickly so you can pull the trigger again.

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[kneelingatlas]

If you rip two shots with one sight picture as fast as you can (for the purposes of diagnosis only, typically you should have at least some sight picture with every shot), where is the second shot?  if it's high, you could probably benefit from a heavier recoil spring, if it's low, a lighter one.

[MemphisMechanic]

3 minutes ago, kneelingatlas said:

If you rip two shots with one sight picture as fast as you can (for the purposes of diagnosis only, typically you should have at least some sight picture with every shot), where is the second shot?  if it's high, you could probably benefit from a heavier recoil spring, if it's low, a lighter one.

 

Somewhat true. But that only applies if you’re gripping hard enough, first.

 

Most guys aren’t. Particularly if they’re below M or at least A class. 

 

Even a properly sprung gun will print the second shot high if you aren’t crushing that sucker.

[reverse_edge]

Just now, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Somewhat true. But that only applies if you’re gripping hard enough, first.

 

Most guys aren’t. Particularly if they’re below M or at least A class. 

 

Even a properly sprung gun will print the second shot high if you aren’t crushing that sucker.

 

Also true, and I've seen plenty of people trying to push that gun down resulting in low hits, as well.

 

 

I've tried springs lighter than 10lbs, and the slide feels too sluggish. Anything heavier than 11 seems to dip the muzzle too much for my liking.  This is all with 124gr ammo about 133PF.  Lighter projectiles will feel a little snappier, heavier projectiles feel a little slower. 

 

That said, I've recently learned how much the hammer spring plays a role in how the recoil feels. I can't tell a difference between 8.5# and 11.5# hammer springs when it comes to trigger feel, but the 8.5# hammer spring makes the slide feel like it comes back a lot harder. 

 

All of these changes (a pound or two here and there) are minuscule at best. That's why at the end of the day it comes down to gripping hard and watching the sights. 

[B_RAD]

An 11lb recoil spring/13lb hammer spring always worked well for me. I like 124 gr bullets around the 130-132 pf. 

 

 

Also, I'd not worry too much about split speed. Ask any champion and I'd bet they'd place the importance of transitions above splits. 

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

23 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Ask any champion and I'd bet they'd place the importance of transitions above splits. 

 

 

 

You’d put shaving tenths of a second ahead of shaving off hundreths? Crazy talk!

[B_RAD]

10 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

You’d put shaving tenths of a second ahead of shaving off hundreths? Crazy talk!

My bad!  Splits get chicks!

[Rnlinebacker]

An 11lb recoil spring/13lb hammer spring always worked well for me. I like 124 gr bullets around the 130-132 pf. 

 

 

Also, I'd not worry too much about split speed. Ask any champion and I'd bet they'd place the importance of transitions above splits. 

 

 

disagree. there are standards that should be met on varying degrees of distance and/or difficulty. However, do agree that transitions are just as vital to shaving time

 

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[xdf3]

40 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

An 11lb recoil spring/13lb hammer spring always worked well for me. I like 124 gr bullets around the 130-132 pf. 

 

 

Also, I'd not worry too much about split speed. Ask any champion and I'd bet they'd place the importance of transitions above splits. 

 

 

Of course, but why would you give off an advantage like that? And, I've seen the time changing in terms of tenths of seconds, or seconds. 

 

If one takes 0.40 per shot while another one takes 0.15/0.18, there's a clear advantage to me. And also easier to reach than by training a lot (for transitions).

 

I think the optimal is around 9-11 lb, whereas 9 requires a lot of strength compared to 11.

 

The fact is, there are a lot of different manifacturers, and a lot of options in terms of bullet weight, burning rate of the powder (does it matter at all, or is it just the speed?)

 

 

I'm pretty sure my grip is strong enough, at least as much as I can.

[B_RAD]

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by B_RAD

[B_RAD]

30 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

Of course, but why would you give off an advantage like that? And, I've seen the time changing in terms of tenths of seconds, or seconds. 

 

If one takes 0.40 per shot while another one takes 0.15/0.18, there's a clear advantage to me. And also easier to reach than by training a lot (for transitions).

 

I think the optimal is around 9-11 lb, whereas 9 requires a lot of strength compared to 11.

 

The fact is, there are a lot of different manifacturers, and a lot of options in terms of bullet weight, burning rate of the powder (does it matter at all, or is it just the speed?)

 

 

I'm pretty sure my grip is strong enough, at least as much as I can.

I guess I should have been more specific. 

 

Obviously, .5 splits are too slow!  I'm talking about around the .2'ish and faster.

 

IMO, I think splits are less valuable compared to transitions. I think there can be more time saved or made up on faster transitions. One reason is trying to shave a .20 down to a .15 can also lead to trigger freeze and low left hits (for right handed) because you're tensing up. If you stay at .2 and are drilling close holes that's gonna lead to more alphas. For me, when I simply use the dot/sight as indicator to.oull the trigger, I have great success. The splits are as fast as they need to be and I never have trigger freeze.  

 

Now, working on transitions and shaving .5 -

.1 per transition , that's gonna make up time. And for every piece of steel, splits are not a factor. Or shouldn't be. 

 

Just my opinion. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by B_RAD

[xdf3]

7 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

I guess I should have been more specific. 

 

Obviously, .5 splits are too slow!  I'm talking about around the .2'ish and faster.

 

IMO, I think splits are less valuable compared to transitions. I think there can be more time saved or made up on faster transitions. One reason is trying to shave a .20 down to a .15 can also lead to trigger freeze and low left hits (for right handed) because you're tensing up. If you stay at .2 and are drilling close holes that's gonna lead to more alphas. For me, when I simply use the dot/sight as indicator to.oull the trigger, I have great success. The splits are as fast as they need to be and I never have trigger freeze.  

 

Now, working on transitions and shaving .5 -

.1 per transition , that's gonna make up time. And for every piece of steel, splits are not a factor. Or shouldn't be. 

 

Just my opinion. 

What I've seen is, most shooters don't have that kind of splits, but they're greater. So, 0.5 at 25 yards is definetely possible.

 

And I consider transitions more important than splits, but splits require less time to work on (usually)

[B_RAD]

16 minutes ago, xdf3 said:

What I've seen is, most shooters don't have that kind of splits, but they're greater. So, 0.5 at 25 yards is definetely possible.

 

And I consider transitions more important than splits, but splits require less time to work on (usually)

I see very few people that can't pull the trigger @ .2 or below. Maybe I'm wrong about that?

 

Pretty sure I seen a video of JJ where he says something about his trigger speed not being what other top shooters can do. He said he just has to make up for it in other areas. 

 

Poeple want to pull the trigger fast. It's cool. It sounds cool and looks real cool on social media.

 

Again, IMO once you get to .2 sec split, foucing on other aspects could be more beneficial. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by B_RAD

[rowdyb]

The difference between a .5 split and a .15 split on any target is more a factor of the shooter's vision and grip than it is ammo and springs.

 

Working on what you can "see" pays great dividends. Holding the frame of the gun rock solid so the slide just reciprocates (rather than going all over the place) give you rapid and repeatable sight pictures aaand sight alignment.

 

Quick splits are more a function of "you" than they are of "gun".

[Rnlinebacker]

The difference between a .5 split and a .15 split on any target is more a factor of the shooter's vision and grip than it is ammo and springs.
 
Working on what you can "see" pays great dividends. Holding the frame of the gun rock solid so the slide just reciprocates (rather than going all over the place) give you rapid and repeatable sight pictures aaand sight alignment.
 
Quick splits are more a function of "you" than they are of "gun".

you daaaaaang right

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[rowdyb]

but since you asked, in my ipsc legal shadow 2 i run a 11# recoil spring, thick buffer, and 11# main spring. everything else in gun totally stock. 147gr bullets going 890 fps.

Edited March 7, 2019 by rowdyb

[kneelingatlas]

+1 on transition work, there nothing cooler than listening to a shooter in the next day with such an even cadence you can tell the transitions from the splits.  

[mannyc]

I'm running a 11# recoil and 11.5# hammer with 147 grn, the 147 runs flatter than the 115 and 124 for me.

[nick779]

 

10 hours ago, rowdyb said:

but since you asked, in my ipsc legal shadow 2 i run a 11# recoil spring, thick buffer, and 11# main spring. everything else in gun totally stock. 147gr bullets going 890 fps.

 

 

7 minutes ago, mannyc said:

I'm running a 11# recoil and 11.5# hammer with 147 grn, the 147 runs flatter than the 115 and 124 for me.

 

Do the stock barrels take 147gr? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that you reamed your S2's chamber rowdy. Id love a factory 147gr load that works in a stock S2 barrel.

[mannyc]

My stock barrel works perfectly fine with the 147 grn, but I reload. Using 147 Xtreme RN, with 1.135 OAL. But I tried it with factory Federal 147 before and they worked fine also.

[rowdyb]

On my 4th shadow. The latter three I did nothing to the barrels and have been able to shoot 147 round nose or flat point out of them just fine. Rn profile I get 1.125" oal easy and flat point at 1.010".

[xdf3]

1 minute ago, rowdyb said:

On my 4th shadow. The latter three I did nothing to the barrels and have been able to shoot 147 round nose or flat point out of them just fine. Rn profile I get 1.125" oal easy and flat point at 1.010".

I thought that would be a little too short (especially 1.010") with huge pressures

[rowdyb]

The amount of powder I use is less in the shorter round. I of course have  o way to measure pressure but running a flat point or truncated cone style projectile shorter lengths are the norm.

[rowdyb]

Something I did a while ago