How to tell if sear and hammer engagement surfaces are still good

[Jfitz427]

Hello 

 

so I started rebuilding my open gun that I i bought used a few months back. It was a custom built gun on a PT frame, trubor slide, so not a stock trubor. I dropped a new Brazos trigger group in it. Probably didn’t need to, but I wanted too. So I have the old hammer, sear and everything out now and I can’t tell if it’s still in good shape, or not. If it is I’d like to put it in my limited gun. It gave a pretty nice 1.5lb pull. The internals is my limited gun are mim parts, so swapping to these would be an upgrade. I’m assuming they are decent parts since they were choosen for this custom build. 

 

I’m pretty new to 1911/2011s, so how can I tell if the angles are still correct, and everything is still good to go? Here’s some pics, I can take more specific ones by request if that will help people. 

 

 

 

 

[Jfitz427]

The  hammer hooks are still sharp, and it doesn’t look like there’s much of any wear on either the seat or hammer. The trigger worked well in the gun before I replaced it. So I guess it would probably still be fine? Here’s some more pics. 

 

 

[Jfitz427]

And some more 

 

[Powder Finger]

if it were me, since you said it worked fine before replacement I would keep that stuff bagged up for a spare for that gun so you can pop it in when you need to at a match.

then work up a new set for the limited gun.

[Jfitz427]

46 minutes ago, Powder Finger said:

if it were me, since you said it worked fine before replacement I would keep that stuff bagged up for a spare for that gun so you can pop it in when you need to at a match.

then work up a new set for the limited gun.

The Brazos trigger I just dropped in my open gun is super nice. Really unbelievable that it’s a drop in unit. It’s actually just under 1.5lbs, comes in at 1lb 6-7ozs. It doesn’t feel to light though. Passes all safety checks. It’s crisp as hell, much nicer reset then the old one, and the one in my limited gun. So I would like to drop in a Brazos into my limited gun. I keep thinking 150 bucks is expensive, then I remember that I paid 200-300 for my Glock triggers. 150 is actually pretty good. 

[Davidp1911]

I good trigger make all the difference -- its worth the money.

[zzt]

Compare the shape of your Limited sear with the Brazos sear.  The Brazos may be a bit smaller and force you to fit a new thumb safety.

[38super]

Drop the slide 20 times, if no hammer follow it's good to go.

[kimberacp]

Mark the sear with a blue shapie, assemble the trigger set.   With or without the slide, dry fire .   Without the slide , drop the hammer on your thumb, so as not to hit the frame.

10 times or so.   Remove the sear, now look and see how the hooks are swiping on the sear face?

Do this any time you replace or drop in any trigger parts.

Buying a trigger package, dropping it in, does not guarantee your getting equal contact from both hooks on the sear!

How do you know for sure?   You don't...until you can verify it.

 

Even a kit from Brazos.  You need to "see",  there is equal contact from both hooks!  If , your not... no bueno.

Especially, with a trigger pull under two pounds.

 

When cleaning the lower portion,  mark the sear with blue sharpie, assemble.    So, the next time you clean and remove the sear, you can see if there are any changes in the contact points!

 

Thanks, to " powder finger"!

 

JMO

[pjb45]

Private Message:  Pat Miles, who is on this forum.

 

He has the knowledge!   Seriously, he has a microscope hooked to his computer to check engagement etc.  He can walk you through the process.

[cconnection]

Find a friend or gunsmith who has a microscope for triggers.  I purchased at Brownels, worth every penny!!! 20x scope that lets you look at the hammer and sear connection.  It has a scale so you can ensure appropriate contact with sear.  Your hammer hook should not be less than 20 thousands, and your sear after 30% back cut should contact the hammer hook a minimum of 12 thousands.  There are great video's on trigger work.  I will comment on this:  If you have a 1 lb 6 oz trigger pull right out of the box, something is wrong!!! The fire-control kits are typically tuned for 2.5-3.5 lb pulls.  pulls under 1.5 lbs are scary!!! Maybe your gauge is off??  anyway, with the naked eye you cannot see enough to judge if a sear/hammer is good or bad, you really need access to a sear scope.  My friends use mine, find a friend with one. 

 

 

[cconnection]

Also the hammer shown in pictures is just a basic hammer, not lightened. If you are trying to get trigger pull down, one big step is a lightened hammer which allows you to drop main spring weight down which starts you on the road to tuning a competitive trigger.

 

 

[kimberacp]

Having the 20x scope is good to have but when you look at the hammer and sear through the scope, the parts are not in the frame.

What really matters is the engagement of the parts when they are in the frame.

So, by using a blue shapie as described earlier,  that will clearly show how the points are contacting. 

 

Is there enough contact?   Does it favor one hook more than the other?

 

Good luck

Edited January 14, 2019 by kimberacp
Adding text

[cconnection]

I have to agree, the scope allows you to see just how clean and square the hammer hook is and that the angle on the sear matches up with the hammer hook, but once in gun nice to check actual function.  I will try this after on gun where trigger feels as good as it should, and then try it on the one that should be good, but just doesn't want to give you that feel!!! 

 

 

[ltdmstr]

 

On 1/13/2019 at 11:40 PM, cconnection said:

Also the hammer shown in pictures is just a basic hammer, not lightened. If you are trying to get trigger pull down, one big step is a lightened hammer which allows you to drop main spring weight down which starts you on the road to tuning a competitive trigger.

 

 

 

The hammer in the pictures is an SV and I can assure you is plenty good for reliable sub 2# triggers.  And dropping the mainspring weight is not the way to get get a good, light, consistent trigger.  The correct way is to get the angles correct and surfaces to the right dimensions.  A standard weight spring will give a crisper pull, better reset feel, and reliable ignition with any brand primer.  As for what to use for inspection, an optical comparator is the best option if you can find one.  The Brownells microscope is a decent alternative.

[Jfitz427]

11 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

 

The hammer in the pictures is an SV and I can assure you is plenty good for reliable sub 2# triggers.  And dropping the mainspring weight is not the way to get get a good, light, consistent trigger.  The correct way is to get the angles correct and surfaces to the right dimensions.  A standard weight spring will give a crisper pull, better reset feel, and reliable ignition with any brand primer.  As for what to use for inspection, an optical comparator is the best option if you can find one.  The Brownells microscope is a decent alternative.

I’m not even sure why I took it out of the  gun and replaced it with a brazos. It was approx 1.5lbs. Crisp break. Short pre and over travel. No problems at all. I think I’m gonna put it back in my open  gun, and then put the Brazos in my limited gun, it could use better trigger. 

[theWacoKid]

On 1/14/2019 at 10:16 AM, kimberacp said:

Having the 20x scope is good to have but when you look at the hammer and sear through the scope, the parts are not in the frame.

What really matters is the engagement of the parts when they are in the frame.

So, by using a blue shapie as described earlier,  that will clearly show how the points are contacting. 

 

Is there enough contact?   Does it favor one hook more than the other?

 

Good luck

 

I use both a jig that you can adjust the hammer and sear pins to match your frame (not my favorite) or an external pin jigs that lets you use the actual frame (my favorite) to evaluate the sear to hammer interface.  It's not perfect, but it is very very good for getting consistent results, especially with a powerful loupe.

 

I get in the ball park like this then go to the frame with trigger feel and marked up for contact.

[Jfitz427]

So I put this one back in the gun it came out of, and it’s really strange but the pull is heavier. It was just over 1.5lbs before, now it’s over 2. Sometimes almost 2.5. I even put the same mainspring back in. Didn’t do anything to the sear spring. It’s all exactly how it was when I took it out. 2lbs isn’t bad by any means. It’s just weird. 

[cconnection]

Not my thread, but I still appreciate the input.   I comment on Main spring weight because my understanding is the typical main spring is 17lbs, but SV sells a 14lb spring. 

My Understanding is the 14 is because SV and QB Hammers are lighter ( similar to the Split hammers and bobbed ) I agree you must get Hammer hook cut right and sear must mate up at exact angle for a crisp pull.   My understanding as well is sear spring should have an empty pull weight of just 8 oz. and sear and disconnect legs should have a combined pull weight of just 16oz.  The trigger pull is a multi faceted complex issue..  

[Jfitz427]

Well I put the new Brazos  trigger group in my sps limited gun and it feels great. Breaks at 1.5lbs. But the thumb safety needs to be fitted. I watched tons of videos, read articles and looked at all the pictures I could find and I just don’t know for sure which part of the lug I need to file. My lug looks different then most I’ve seen online. May have to take it to the smith. Everyone says it’s easy to do, and I’m sure it is if someone could show me where I need to take some material from. It gets stuck on the sear. I can kinda see where the lug hits the sear. But I don’t want to mess it up. Anyone have some suggestions ? 

 

 

[ltdmstr]

Use some dykem or a red marker to color the flat part, then insert it into the gun as far as you can and rub it up and down.  When you take it out, the color will be rubbed off showing exactly where to remove material.  Use a pillar file if you have one and take off a little at a time until it goes in and moves up and down the full range of motion.  Then be sure to test before loading any live ammo.

[Jfitz427]

Well I got the part of the lug that engages the sear fitted. Man that’s a tedious process. But I feel comfortable doing it now In the future. But then I ran into another problem. It felt like the hammer was dragging on something. Those extreme parts really have a lot of meat on them. So I had to also fit the other part of the lug on the safety to clear the hammer. So now everything works great. The gun passes all the safety checks. Shooting a match on Thursday, but I’m gonna go to the indoor range Tuesday and do some testing just to double check. 

 

The trigger breaks at 1lb 5ozs, it’s very consistent too. 10 pulls it never went past 1lb 6 oz, or lowest was 1lb 4ozs. It’s pretty incredible to get a sub 1.5lb trigger that basically drops in. It did 100% drop into my open gun, and the pull weight was the same. 

[Jfitz427]

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Edited January 21, 2019 by Jfitz427

[Jfitz427]

Took my limited  gun out to the range today with the new Brazos  trigger installed and man it’s sweet. Ran 100rds though it and it ran perfectly. It’s unbelievable that this is a drop in  trigger, breaking at 15ozs and runs 100%. No hammer follow, nothing, just perfection. It’s got the most crisp break, nice reset. I couldn’t be happier. And my safety that I fit works as it should. Great product, I’d definitely recommend to anyone looking for an upgrade. 

[zzt]

I'll just throw out some random thoughts gained from experience.  Of all the good sears, the smallest is the C&S/Extreme Engineering.  It is a superb sear, but you have to be careful to use a thumb safety that has a lot of meat on it so you can fit it.  EGW parts always have a lot of meat, so they are good to use.  If and when the EE sear needs replacing, use an EGW hard sear.  It is fatter than the EE so there is metal on the TS that can be removed to fit.  The Harrison Custom is fatter yet.

 

The same applies to the TS.  If you used and EGW sear and you wore out the TS from shooting and dry fire, pop a Harrison Custom sear in and the TS will work again.

 

Do not use an STI Ti hammer strut.  It flexes.  So you have a spring and another spring.  The EGW Ti strut flexes less.  SS struts don't flex at all.

 

I don't know who told one of the posters that a 17 lb main spring was standard, but it is not.  C&S kits come with an 18 lb MS.  EGW and several others recommend a 19 lb MS.  If you set a perfect 2 lb trigger pull, you cannot tell the difference between a 15, 17, 18 or 19 lb MS.  People who use a 15 lb MS, Ti cap, Ti strut and Ti FP are just nuts.  That setup only works with Federal primers.  The difference in lock time is essentially non-existent.  Yes there is one, but you won't feel it unless you imagine it.  I use a 19 lb MS and a SS FP just so I'm sure every brand of primer will go bang.  And I can get a perfect, reliable 1.5 lb trigger with that setup.

 

For the poster asking where to cut the TS to fit, buy a 10-8 Armorers Block.  It has a special place for holding the TS, so you just file parallel to the surface and the angle is right.  Actually, you should file a slight radius on the TS.  http://www.10-8performance.com/products/Armorer-Block.html  You can find them cheaper elsewhere.