JP jumps on the short stroke bandwagon

[SJMPCC022]

I think I'm going to pull the trigger( pun intended) on the Taccom 3 buffer system. As was pointed out above, they offer the short stroke kit for an extra 20$. Is it worth the 20$ for a side by side comparison or not necessary?

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

38 minutes ago, SJMPCC022 said:

I think I'm going to pull the trigger( pun intended) on the Taccom 3 buffer system. As was pointed out above, they offer the short stroke kit for an extra 20$. Is it worth the 20$ for a side by side comparison or not necessary?

 

I've got the upgrade kit coming in next week.  I'll report back when I have a chance to test it.

[3gunnuts]

13 hours ago, STIboy said:

 

I've got the upgrade kit coming in next week.  I'll report back when I have a chance to test it.

I do as well. Plan to try it side by side with an identical gun and make comparisons like carrier weight in vs removed, extra wave spring at back of tube, etc. Will post my findings and opinions of my teammate and myself.

[SJMPCC022]

9 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

I do as well. Plan to try it side by side with an identical gun and make comparisons like carrier weight in vs removed, extra wave spring at back of tube, etc. Will post my findings and opinions of my teammate and myself.

I ordered the Taccom 3 last night, but I opted out of the short stroke add on. I will wait till you guys chime back in to see if that was a good idea or not.

 

What if you would add a wave spring into the mix? I know they have been talked about here but until I saw the  short stroke upgrade I didn't know what they were. I can see where it may help. Is that a Taccom item or someone else's ? 

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

7 hours ago, SJMPCC022 said:

I ordered the Taccom 3 last night, but I opted out of the short stroke add on. I will wait till you guys chime back in to see if that was a good idea or not.

 

What if you would add a wave spring into the mix? I know they have been talked about here but until I saw the  short stroke upgrade I didn't know what they were. I can see where it may help. Is that a Taccom item or someone else's ? 

 

The short stroke kit is a Taccom item:

 

     https://taccom3g.com/product/taccom-short-stroke-upgrade-kit/

 

It consists of a Delrin cushion (replacing the steel one supplied with the 3 stage buffer) and a wave spring.

[jkrispies]

2 hours ago, STIboy said:

 

The short stroke kit is a Taccom item:

 

     https://taccom3g.com/product/taccom-short-stroke-upgrade-kit/

 

It consists of a Delrin cushion (replacing the steel one supplied with the 3 stage buffer) and a wave spring.

I just ordered one but it’ll be a few months before I’ll be able to try it out for real.

[3gunnuts]

Got the Taccom short stroke upgrade installed today. Feels a less violent than just running spacers and quarters. Did some limited testing with and without the bolt weight installed. Weight out kept the gun a bit better on target with as much downward bounce when the bolt closes. Will run more tests midweek when I get back to work. Definitely worth the $20.

[SJMPCC022]

 

5 hours ago, jkrispies said:

I just ordered one but it’ll be a few months before I’ll be able to try it out for real.

I had a match today and did pretty well, about where I should have been. Dot went very dim first stage, one mike but a battery change fixed that. I paid extra attention to the speed at which different people were able to pull the trigger on whatever gun they were shooting.

 

I shot a bit of practice Saturday morning and did something I never did before. I fired about 10 rounds one at a time very slow at a steel plate and watched the dot.

 

Every time the dot tracked up and right. As I mentioned in an earlier post I have a Kaw Valley 7.5oz buffer and the rifle spring that comes with it. As a right handed shooter this movement has to be the buffer bottoming out in the tube ? I pulled the gun in extra tight but the dot would still track up and right, just not as much. Because the gun functions so well, flawless outside of a few early on bumps with different mag bases, I was hesitant to change anything........................................

 

So..................the Taccom 3 I ordered last night should be here early this week and I have another match next Sunday. As long as it functions with my ammo I will be live fire testing it next week. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by SJMPCC022
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[LowSpeedHighDrag]

7 hours ago, SJMPCC022 said:

 

I had a match today and did pretty well, about where I should have been. Dot went very dim first stage, one mike but a battery change fixed that. I paid extra attention to the speed at which different people were able to pull the trigger on whatever gun they were shooting.

 

I shot a bit of practice Saturday morning and did something I never did before. I fired about 10 rounds one at a time very slow at a steel plate and watched the dot.

 

Every time the dot tracked up and right. As I mentioned in an earlier post I have a Kaw Valley 7.5oz buffer and the rifle spring that comes with it. As a right handed shooter this movement has to be the buffer bottoming out in the tube ? I pulled the gun in extra tight but the dot would still track up and right, just not as much. Because the gun functions so well, flawless outside of a few early on bumps with different mag bases, I was hesitant to change anything........................................

 

So..................the Taccom 3 I ordered last night should be here early this week and I have another match next Sunday. As long as it functions with my ammo I will be live fire testing it next week. 

 

Interesting observation on the dot movement and your presumed reason for it.

 

Good luck on Sunday, and let us know what happens.

[SJMPCC022]

51 minutes ago, STIboy said:

 

Interesting observation on the dot movement and your presumed reason for it.

 

Good luck on Sunday, and let us know what happens.

 

52 minutes ago, STIboy said:

 

Interesting observation on the dot movement and your presumed reason for it.

 

Good luck on Sunday, and let us know what happens.

Thanks. What would your reason be ? As I said, very slow deliberate shots, no trigger jerk. Typical right hand flinch would be low left.

[MikieM]

The 7 and 1/2 ounce buffer is an excellent choice, but I think the spring is not.

You may have more success with the JP 308 Carbine spring, or the Sprinco (orange) spring.

This is the set-up I use and reliability and function is 100%, and the dot movement is minimal.

[SJMPCC022]

1 hour ago, MikieM said:

The 7 and 1/2 ounce buffer is an excellent choice, but I think the spring is not.

You may have more success with the JP 308 Carbine spring, or the Sprinco (orange) spring.

This is the set-up I use and reliability and function is 100%, and the dot movement is minimal.

Which of the two mentioned do u use or have u tried both ? Your recommendation? If I don't like the Taccom 3 I will try a different spring.

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

5 hours ago, SJMPCC022 said:

 

Thanks. What would your reason be ? As I said, very slow deliberate shots, no trigger jerk. Typical right hand flinch would be low left.

 

I can't think of a better reason than what you came up with.  I'm curious how the symptoms responds to further testing.

 

I've got my JP GMR-13 running okay now and my presumed match load dialed in.  Next step is to adjust the SCS buffer with different weights and springs to see how the gun responds.  I'll do the same with the other PCC using both MBX and Taccom buffers for comparison.

 

Ah, the search continues... 

[SJMPCC022]

4 minutes ago, STIboy said:

 

I can't think of a better reason than what you came up with.  I'm curious how the symptoms responds to further testing.

 

I've got my JP GMR-13 running okay now and my presumed match load dialed in.  Next step is to adjust the SCS buffer with different weights and springs to see how the gun responds.  I'll do the same with the other PCC using both MBX and Taccom buffers for comparison.

 

Ah, the search continues... 

It made sense to me, seems like basic physics. The Taccom should b here in time to install and use next Sunday, I will  definately report back, as I think some are learning from this discussion, myself included.

 

 

[MikieM]

3 hours ago, SJMPCC022 said:

Which of the two mentioned do u use or have u tried both ? Your recommendation? If I don't like the Taccom 3 I will try a different spring.

 

I've used both and my preference is the JP.

It's polished SS so the buffer goes in and out of it a little smoother than the Sprinco so there's less noise and vibration. Performance wise they are about identical.

[JAFO]

7 hours ago, SJMPCC022 said:

 

Thanks. What would your reason be ? As I said, very slow deliberate shots, no trigger jerk. Typical right hand flinch would be low left.

When I had a solid buffer and quarters in the bottom of the tube, I saw the same thing.  Up and right bounce all the time.  When I switched to a hydraulic buffer, it was quite a bit longer so I removed the quarters.  Dot bounce then started to track straight up.  So I agree with your guess that the buffer is hitting in the back of the tube.

[SJMPCC022]

48 minutes ago, JAFO said:

When I had a solid buffer and quarters in the bottom of the tube, I saw the same thing.  Up and right bounce all the time.  When I switched to a hydraulic buffer, it was quite a bit longer so I removed the quarters.  Dot bounce then started to track straight up.  So I agree with your guess that the buffer is hitting in the back of the tube.

Did it seem track up as much as before or less? I apologize for splitting split hairs but I'm trying to really figure this out. Do you feel the hydraulic buffer makes the gun noticeably more controlable/easier to get on target quicker ?

[JAFO]

19 minutes ago, SJMPCC022 said:

Did it seem track up as much as before or less? I apologize for splitting split hairs but I'm trying to really figure this out. Do you feel the hydraulic buffer makes the gun noticeably more controlable/easier to get on target quicker ?

 

My gun came with a standard AR buffer and 5.56 carbine recoil spring, to which I added the quarters to limit travel past the bolt catch.  Compared to that, yes, the hydraulic buffer made the dot movement noticeably better.  I am still trying to figure out how I like it with a wave spring.  I've backed down from a 308 rifle spring to a 308 carbine spring since installing the wave.  The gun still runs fine but seems to cycle a tad quicker.  Including the wave spring lost my LRBHO feature with either recoil spring.  I can only manually retract the bolt to within ~1/8" of the catch.  It will lock open on recoil, but it's a bear to release it with the new springs.  I'm hoping that might get easier with use.  My bolt does not have a removable weight, so I've never attempted running it lighter.

[MemphisMechanic]

Do you shoot with the gun tucked into your shoulder pocket and your body slightly bladed? Or is your chest square to the target with the rifle closer to centerline?

 

As a rifle recoils it pushes against whatever is behind it. If your stance isn’t very low and forward? Any little bit the rifle can push you back will be seen as a slight rotation of your shoulder, too.

It doesn’t take much for that to move the dot a little bit. If it’s hitting the  buffer tube harder, it might be affecting your stance a little more.  

 

Play with your stance and how you grip and drive the rifle, not just with the buffer and spring.

 

There is more movement in this string than there should be, because I didn’t have the stock clamped tightly between the shoulder and support hand. When I do that it doesn’t move AT ALL, but even here it looks pretty flat, you can just see it bouncing back slightly in recoil:

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

9 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 I can only manually retract the bolt to within ~1/8" of the catch.  It will lock open on recoil, but it's a bear to release it with the new springs.  I'm hoping that might get easier with use.  My bolt does not have a removable weight, so I've never attempted running it lighter.

 

Wace springs come in 5 packs, so you have spares... and they’re easy to shorten.  

 

Try cutting one “turn” off the spring. I did that, and it made it possible for my franken-guard to lock back manually if driven backward hard, but more importantly tripping the bolt release now requires a normal amount of force. No GI Joe Kung-Fu grip.

 

Gun still recoiled exactly the same.

Edited August 13, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Wace springs come in 5 packs, so you have spares... and they’re easy to shorten.  

 

Try cutting one “turn” off the spring. I did that, and it made it possible for my franken-guard to lock back manually if driven backward hard, but more importantly tripping the bolt release now requires a normal amount of force. No GI Joe Kung-Fu grip.

 

Gun still recoiled exactly the same.

 

I will try that.  I have a Hosefest match coming up in October for which reloads will be required for my 47-rd mags.  I don't PLAN on shooting empty, but it would be nice to have it sorted by then, especially since you can feel the difference on locking back without pulling the trigger on an empty chamber.

[MemphisMechanic]

@JAFO and it becomes much easier to identify a malfunction from an empty gun, if it consistently locks back. Agreed.

 

With high round counts, I’d stop to give the BCG/upper a quick scrub halfway through. Or at least re-oil her in the safe area.

 

Just a thought. 

[3gunnuts]

4 hours ago, JAFO said:

When I had a solid buffer and quarters in the bottom of the tube, I saw the same thing.  Up and right bounce all the time.  When I switched to a hydraulic buffer, it was quite a bit longer so I removed the quarters.  Dot bounce then started to track straight up.  So I agree with your guess that the buffer is hitting in the back of the tube.

Gun kicking up and right for righties is normally 556 guns do this that is why righties clock their brakes at 1 o'clock. Barrel twist can also cause torque the barrel left/right while upward lift is due to bolt hitting the receiver extensionextension higher than the center of the stock. The harder it hits the more lift you see but the shorter the stroke the faster it returns. 

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

Okay, slight diversion.  While we're on the subject of recoil impulse and dot movement, anyone care to give guidelines on changing the buffer weight versus the buffer recoil spring?  Which should be varied first or more?

[SJMPCC022]

Rather than quote every response I will respond to all at once........................................

 

Great info, thank you. MM, that video was bad ass, that gun looked pretty steady to me, targets at 7yds?

 

I also liked the input on stance, it does matter. The match yesterday was the first time I was ever captured on video shooting a match, I plan on watching that very carefully and adjusting as needed.

 

Taccom3 should be here by Thursday,( I hope) will install, function test and go live Sunday. Report to follow.