JP jumps on the short stroke bandwagon

[3gunnuts]

15 hours ago, armedmoose said:

Video of product to improve your PCC with not one shot fired or shown..

 

I need an example review video to be sold, not just too guys promising their tonic will cure all my PCC woes.

There are plenty of videos of short stroked AR9's.  They are not breaking ground here they have just signed on with what most people have figured out, short stroke improves function and decreases cycling time.  How it feels is subjective but I have tested several hundred rounds the last 2 weeks with various combinations and I am getting faster recovery with a short-stroked setup than with anything else I have tried.  I have also found that short-stroking a regular buffer system is more effective than not short-stroking a Taccom 3 stage.  I currently have the 3 Stage short stroked.

 

[jkrispies]

1 hour ago, 3gunnuts said:

I have also found that short-stroking a regular buffer system is more effective than not short-stroking a Taccom 3 stage.  I currently have the 3 Stage short stroked.

 

How are you accomplishing this?  Pics?

 

EDIT TO ADD:  Just found the other thread where you discuss this. I’m already using a spacer to make my rifle length into a carbine length.  What size spacer have you settled on?   And did you do anything to/with the spring?

Edited August 5, 2018 by jkrispies

[3gunnuts]

1 hour ago, jkrispies said:

How are you accomplishing this?  Pics?

 

EDIT TO ADD:  Just found the other thread where you discuss this. I’m already using a spacer to make my rifle length into a carbine length.  What size spacer have you settled on?   And did you do anything to/with the spring?

I have the Taccom 3 stage with reduced power rifle spring it comes with I have a plastic spacer and right now 4 quarters taking up about an inch.  If I go much shorter it is really easy to bump fire a short burst if you go light with your grip.  Since my son is also shooting this I want to avoid that.  Originally I thought it was maybe the way short stroking interacts with the Hiperfire Trigger but it happens with the JP also but not as easily due to the more solid "wall" on the JP trigger break. Recoil is sharp but short lived and the dot recovers faster than just the 3 stage alone.

 

[SJMPCC022]

5 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

I have the Taccom 3 stage with reduced power rifle spring it comes with I have a plastic spacer and right now 4 quarters taking up about an inch.  If I go much shorter it is really easy to bump fire a short burst if you go light with your grip.

Maybe I am missing something here but the physics don't add up to me.

 

If I were to put an inch of spacers in the back of my buffer tube I would think the bolt would bottom out to early and without all the pressure the spring would provide if the spacers were not in there?  This would result in the bolt hitting 18% to 20% harder.( length of available tube behind the buffer minus one inch) What are you gaining?

 

Also, with any of the aftermarket buffer systems,( I bought one and returned it after installing but not firing one round) they are shorter to start with. Again, what are you gaining?

[3gunnuts]

1 minute ago, SJMPCC022 said:

Maybe I am missing something here but the physics don't add up to me.

 

If I were to put an inch of spacers in the back of my buffer tube I would think the bolt would bottom out to early and without all the pressure the spring would provide if the spacers were not in there?  This would result in the bolt hitting 18% to 20% harder.( length of available tube behind the buffer minus one inch) What are you gaining?

 

Also, with any of the aftermarket buffer systems,( I bought one and returned it after installing but not firing one round) they are shorter to start with. Again, what are you gaining?

You need to look at a Taccom 3 stage buffer and it will make more sense. It is longer than a carbine buffer and has a spring inside that pushes against a "piston" on either end.  Yes the buffer hits back of the tube faster but it also returns to battery faster. Even with my spacer the spring does not go solid due the collapsed length of the buffer. The additional weight even compared to a PSA heavy buffer also helps.

[SJMPCC022]

1 minute ago, 3gunnuts said:

You need to look at a Taccom 3 stage buffer and it will make more sense

That makes some sense, I will do that.

 

Again though, my gun functions 100% so far, and fires and spits brass as fast as I can pull the trigger. On a stage a few months ago there were three low targets laying back at a 45* angle over a low( 4' wall). It was classic stick the barrel over the wall and let 6 rounds fly as fast as is humanly possible ( for me at least)  and get 6 hits on three targets that were tight shoulder to shoulder. At least half the squad said " holy s**t!, that sounded fast. 

 

I'm not doubting( any more at least) just wondering what the speed/functioning advantage is vs. cost ?

[3gunnuts]

1 hour ago, SJMPCC022 said:

That makes some sense, I will do that.

 

Again though, my gun functions 100% so far, and fires and spits brass as fast as I can pull the trigger. On a stage a few months ago there were three low targets laying back at a 45* angle over a low( 4' wall). It was classic stick the barrel over the wall and let 6 rounds fly as fast as is humanly possible ( for me at least)  and get 6 hits on three targets that were tight shoulder to shoulder. At least half the squad said " holy s**t!, that sounded fast. 

 

I'm not doubting( any more at least) just wondering what the speed/functioning advantage is vs. cost ?

Hammers up close especially where you are not having to aim there won't be measurable difference. Its shots where you actually need to aim. Less dot movement means faster aimed follow up shot. 

[SJMPCC022]

11 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

Hammers up close especially where you are not having to aim there won't be measurable difference. Its shots where you actually need to aim. Less dot movement means faster aimed follow up shot. 

I can buy that.

[MemphisMechanic]

13 hours ago, SJMPCC022 said:

That makes some sense, I will do that.

 

Again though, my gun functions 100% so far, and fires and spits brass as fast as I can pull the trigger. On a stage a few months ago there were three low targets laying back at a 45* angle over a low( 4' wall). It was classic stick the barrel over the wall and let 6 rounds fly as fast as is humanly possible ( for me at least)  and get 6 hits on three targets that were tight shoulder to shoulder. At least half the squad said " holy s**t!, that sounded fast. 

 

I'm not doubting( any more at least) just wondering what the speed/functioning advantage is vs. cost ?

 

Do that at 25 yards - hammer three targets with the followup shots fired as fast as you can pull the trigger.

 

Then spend time playing with buffer, stroke length, ammo PF, and compensator port sizes. And do it again. The definition of flat isn’t how fast you rip off a 7yd bill drill. It’s how closely spaced your holes are at distance when you do it.

 

A couple guys in this thread have been hung up on a short-stroked gun offering a faster cycle time, so they blow it off. You won’t notice the difference in cycle time. The difference you notice is how much closer to that little letter “A” the dot stays while the gun is recoiling.

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[MegaCleanCab]

The video was great. They show all the parts for the upgrade kit. It just so happens if you have one of each or their scs. You can combine them and make a single new short stroke setup. I did it this morning. I will try it out tomorrow and let you know how it worked.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JAFO]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:21 PM, Silverscooby27 said:

I can’t get big sticks to seat well. I seem to have better luck with the 17 rounders so I can really slam them in with my palm. Problem is that if it is an unloaded start with >17 rounds.

 

If you download your big stick a few rounds and still have issues getting enough grip to seat it well, you can try adding skate tape to the mag body.  There's plenty of real estate on a big stick mag to place some tape without any chance of it getting up into the magwell.

[Acer2428]

I run an Armaspec unit and made my own delrin spacer a few months ago. 1" OD delrin is < $5 at Grainger. I drilled a 1/2" hole in the middle so the spring/rod can pass through. I have enough stroke that I can just barely manually engage the bolt catch, but not enough time for the catch to lock back on an empty mag. I use an open-bolt start for ease. I may try a longer spacer to further reduce travel, but this is a nice middle-ground for me. 

[Silverscooby27]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

 

If you download your big stick a few rounds and still have issues getting enough grip to seat it well, you can try adding skate tape to the mag body.  There's plenty of real estate on a big stick mag to place some tape without any chance of it getting up into the magwell.

That’s a great idea! Thanks!

[3gunnuts]

2 hours ago, Acer2428 said:

I run an Armaspec unit and made my own delrin spacer a few months ago. 1" OD delrin is < $5 at Grainger. I drilled a 1/2" hole in the middle so the spring/rod can pass through. I have enough stroke that I can just barely manually engage the bolt catch, but not enough time for the catch to lock back on an empty mag. I use an open-bolt start for ease. I may try a longer spacer to further reduce travel, but this is a nice middle-ground for me. 

Unloaded start position is bolt forward hammer down.

[SJMPCC022]

10 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

A couple guys in this thread have been hung up on a short-stroked gun offering a faster cycle time, so they blow it off. You won’t notice the difference in cycle time. The difference you notice is how much closer to that little letter “A” the dot stays while the gun is recoiling.

OK, one last question.( how many times have you heard that ?)

 

Does this set up perform as you say because it is a " short stroke" system or because it is an improved system over a heavy buffer and long spring ?

5 hours ago, Acer2428 said:

I run an Armaspec unit and made my own delrin spacer a few months ago. 1" OD delrin is < $5 at Grainger. I drilled a 1/2" hole in the middle so the spring/rod can pass through. I have enough stroke that I can just barely manually engage the bolt catch, but not enough time for the catch to lock back on an empty mag. I use an open-bolt start for ease. I may try a longer spacer to further reduce travel, but this is a nice middle-ground for me. 

I use this quote to aid in my question.

 

I don't have any interest in trying to time the bolt so it clears the next round in the mag by only .003 and peels it off as fast as is possible, unless that is the reason the recoil is held down. I would think going down that rabbit hole would lead to other problems, such as a round that is 50fps slower than the one you used to time the bolt with the spring and spacers. Or if it was hotter or colder the day you shot a match vs the day you set your gun up.

 

I mentioned in a different thread I bought an Armaspec buffer that was mentioned above. I put it in the gun and immediately didn't like it. even with the weight in the bolt out the gun felt heavier and " different". I sent it back, maybe I didn't give it a chance ?

[3gunnuts]

7 minutes ago, SJMPCC022 said:

OK, one last question.( how many times have you heard that ?)

 

Does this set up perform as you say because it is a " short stroke" system or because it is an improved system over a heavy buffer and long spring ?

I use this quote to aid in my question.

 

I don't have any interest in trying to time the bolt so it clears the next round in the mag by only .003 and peels it off as fast as is possible, unless that is the reason the recoil is held down. I would think going down that rabbit hole would lead to other problems, such as a round that is 50fps slower than the one you used to time the bolt with the spring and spacers. Or if it was hotter or colder the day you shot a match vs the day you set your gun up.

 

I mentioned in a different thread I bought an Armaspec buffer that was mentioned above. I put it in the gun and immediately didn't like it. even with the weight in the bolt out the gun felt heavier and " different". I sent it back, maybe I didn't give it a chance ?

I don't have mine set for minimum cycling as I get bumpfires if I do. Short stroking starts the bolt forward faster giving the barrel less time to rise per se before the bolt mass brings it back down. I tried my same setup with the bolt weight removed and got more dot movement so I put it back in. Again I am not sure if the Taccom 3 stage is helping more so than just the shear weight of it. With a PSA heavy weight buffer, which is slightly lighter, short stroked I get similar results. Feel is very subjective so you have to match to your shooting style. With my limited gun I like a slower recoil impulse I get from 180gr 40's vs the faster, sharper impulse from 165gr bullets. Gives me time to resettle the sights. With a dot I like the opposite.

[MemphisMechanic]

@SJMPCC022 I can’t answer most of your questions. I run a funky gun with a funky weight hydraulic buffer and heavy spring. Short stroked with a wave spring behind the hydro buffer.

 

But shorter strokes means flatter gun, and wave spring instead of a stack of quarters meant flatter still.

[Fo0]

to short stroke is just making the buffer shorter?

[BigBamBoo]

5 hours ago, Fo0 said:

to short stroke is just making the buffer shorter?

 

No...longer. You want the distance of the bolt travel to be less. So most folks use a spacer or wave spring to limit overall boltsnd buffer travel.

[Acer2428]

15 hours ago, 3gunnuts said:

Unloaded start position is bolt forward hammer down.

 

Right, I just mean walking up to the line. Instead of fighting with the mag or downloading my big stick, I manually lock bolt to the rear, RO takes flag out, I insert mag and hit the bolt catch. g2g. 

 

 

[Acer2428]

12 hours ago, SJMPCC022 said:

 

 

I don't have any interest in trying to time the bolt so it clears the next round in the mag by only .003 and peels it off as fast as is possible, unless that is the reason the recoil is held down. I would think going down that rabbit hole would lead to other problems, such as a round that is 50fps slower than the one you used to time the bolt with the spring and spacers. Or if it was hotter or colder the day you shot a match vs the day you set your gun up.

 

I mentioned in a different thread I bought an Armaspec buffer that was mentioned above. I put it in the gun and immediately didn't like it. even with the weight in the bolt out the gun felt heavier and " different". I sent it back, maybe I didn't give it a chance ?

 

I went half way. I have more than enough clearance for variances in bolt speed. The danger would actually be a HOTTER round that forces the bolt to cycle faster, thus allowing less time for the mag to pop a round up. My point was instead of buying a fancy pre-set system you can create your own, with customizable tolerances, for pretty darn cheap w/ a $4.86 delrin rod and a hand drill. 

 

I also enjoy being able to manually lock the bolt for loaded starts, clearing nasty jams, etc. I may try a longer spacer at some point. Seems like one could also do it with a normal buffer setup w/ a delrin rod with a small enough OD to fit within the buffer spring. 

 

I like the Armaspec. I originally bought it for suppressed use with my AR-9 pistol, but found it to be so much smoother than a normal buffer setup I swapped it over to my PCC when I built it. I also have JP SCS setups for my 556 AR's and they're great, but for the money, the Armaspec works just fine IMO.  

[Fo0]

3 hours ago, BigBamBoo said:

 

No...longer. You want the distance of the bolt travel to be less. So most folks use a spacer or wave spring to limit overall boltsnd buffer travel.

 

What kind of stroke length are people using? I have MBX buffer and it has 2 Adjustable Stoke Lengths: - 1.400 Stroke Long - .900 Stroke Short. This video doesn't give any specs. Thank You

[MikieM]

You won't get something for nothing.

If you restrict the rearward travel of the bolt/buffer enough you can lose the hold open function. A feature that many like.

You may also loose the ability to hold the bolt open with the bolt catch. This can be especially problematic when you're at a stage where you need all the ammo you can stuff into a magazine.

Most of all, however, you will see an increase in felt recoil since you won't be using all of the available action spring to dampen the bolt/buffer as it moves toward the rear. Dot movement will increase, as well.

[MemphisMechanic]

@MikieM I have to agree with everything except the glaring inaccuracy of your last scentence.

 

I have yet to shoot a gun that didn’t flatten out noticeably (less dot movement) when it was de-stroked to the point where you can just barely lock the bolt back.

 

That’s the entire reason for doing it; tighter groups when splitting really fast.

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[JAFO]

52 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@MikieM I have to agree with everything except the glaring inaccuracy of your last scentence.

 

I have yet to shoot a gun that didn’t flatten out noticeably (less dot movement) when it was de-stroked to the point where you can just barely lock the bolt back.

 

That’s the entire reason for doing it; tighter groups when splitting really fast.

 

 

That may depend on how you short-stroke it.  When I backstopped my bolt using quarters, I got more dot jump than I get with a wave spring.  Currently, I'm using the Blitzkrieg with a single wave washer.  The bolt runs right to the bolt catch.  I can't manually pull back to the catch, but it will work under recoil (although it's tough to release).  I'm hoping that will get better as the springs break in, as both the recoil spring and the wave spring are new.

Edited August 7, 2018 by JAFO