Metal Targets As Used In Us4.3.1.5

[SteveZ]

I had originally posted this in the Reshoots thread...but thought it was a thread drift so I decided to give it a life of its own......

OK much as I hate to do this I am going to quote the rule in total.

US 4.3.1.5 "Metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.  Metal targets which accidently turn edge on or sideways or which fail to fall when hit, or which a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them, or for any other reason, will be treated as range equipment failure."

The rule covers all metal targets, both plates and poppers.  Yes few poppers have turned sideways and that part of the rule applies to plates.  However if you read the second part of that sentence in conjunction with the first part of "metal targets" it clearly says "or which fail to fall when hit".

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I'm going to quote both US4.1.3.5 and US4.3.1.6 at the end of this message for reference.

Lets start with US4.3.1.6, here the use of "metal target" has to apply to plates. If metal targets applied to poppers...then according to US4.3.1.6, a hit on a popper that didn't fall would require that the RO calls "REF" and a reshoot would be given and we all know thats not the case.

Now lets look at US4.3.1.5. ...and take it apart line by line.

Metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. that's always been the case

Metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways that has to be about a plate...poppers can't turn on edge or sideways

or which fail to fall or overturn when hit I'm going to leave this alone for a minute..but note the use of the word "or".....and if you know a bit about logic (what "or" means, what "and" means....what "not" means)...I'll make my case

or which a RO deems to have falled or overturned....talks about metal plate stands clearly!!!

Will be treated as range equipment failure which is always ground for a reshoot

"OR" logic means that any one of the conditions could be met and the statement is true. AND logic says that all the conditions have to be true to make the statement true. So lets rewrite US4.3.1.5 leaving out some non-applicable OR's

US4.3.1.5 Metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

Metal targets which fail to fall or overturn when hit, will be

treated as range equipment failure. (see Rule 4.6.1).

I've removed the part about turning on edge (because that's a metal plate) and the part about "fallen or overturned" (because that's about a metal plate stand) and kept the rest. According to what I have left...any metal target (plate or popper) which fails to fall or overturn when hit, will be treated as range equipment failure......which would require a reshoot. But this statement is in direct conflict with popper challenges outlined in Appendix C1.... so it can't be true...therefore in US4.3.1.5, "metal targets" must apply to plates and not poppers.

Makes sense? If this is the case...I don't think an RO should stop the shooter when it comes to poppers which don't fall on multiple hits. We've already got a process to deal with that (Appendix C). If the shooter thinks there's a problem with the popper after multiple hits, they should leave it and challenge it after the COF has ended.

US4.3.1.5 Metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

Metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways

or which fail to fall or overturn when hit, or which a Range

Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the

apparatus supporting them or for any other reason, will be

treated as range equipment failure. (see Rule 4.6.1).

US4.3.1.6 Unlike IPSC Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration

or calibration challenges. If a metal target has been

hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall

declare range equipment failure and order the competitor

to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been

rectified.

[Jim Norman]

If we are going to re-write the rules...

Why not insert a rule that says a popper that receives muliple FULL DIAMETER HITS within the Circle and fails to fall will be treated as REF.

Too often I have seen a popper get hit multile times and not fall. THe hits are from a 175 PF open gun, the hit is dead center, the popper moved, but did not fall. The shooter left it stand, Calibration was performed and although the popper fell, it did so so slowly that it was determined that the popper was at the edge of acceptable limits and was adjusted. This is just plain wrong. If the RM determines that the popper is not adjusted correctly, we should reset and fire a second calibration shot, IF the popper fails to fall, the shooter gets a reshoot and the popper is now readjusted and re-calibrated. If the popper falls, the mike stands. This way the popper is tested in as close to it's original state as possible, not is a state reflecting its position after receivineg one or more hits.

Either of the above is fairer than our current system.

While we are at it, why not require that calibration ammo be chronoed at 120PF? We allow a shooter to run this game with 125PF, yet we allow the calibraion ammo to be as high as 130 or so. That is also wrong. Calibration shold be under the minumum allowed for score or at most equal to 125.

My opionion only.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

Jim,

Good points.

[shred]

As instigator of the latest rules on this one (no, I didn't get what I wanted, but it was my Arb of an edge-hit-but-not-fallen-plate), I'd say it's going to be tough getting IPSC to accept anything less than what's there. USPSA maybe can be persuaded.

[bgary]

USPSA maybe can be persuaded

There is an ongoing conversation (more precisely, a conversation that never got satisfactorily resolved) about the wording of the rules with regard to metal targets.

What we want are rules that make it *clear* that

-- metal targets must fall to score

-- if a plate spins, but doesn't fall, it is range equipment failure

-- if a popper fails to go down, the shooter "owns" it (and may request a test)

The first is pretty clear.

The second is pretty clear

The third is pretty muddy: if a popper doesn't go down when a shooter shoots it, it is [arguably] in a different state than when the RM comes to test it; if it goes down, it does *not* necessarily mean that it was set correctly, but there is no way to test it without affecting its state. That's a quandary.

The second and third, together, are (IMO) an implied mess - I think we should un-link the rules for plates from the rules for poppers, because they really are different enough (design, calibration rules, etc) to be different animals.

I am *sure* we will look at this again, next time the hood is open on the USPSA rulebook. I just don't know when that will be.

Bruce

[BritinUSA]

Paint the steel after each shooter, if the shooter hits the popper above the calibration line and it does not fall, then it's range equipment failure.

You can't compete unless your PF makes MINOR and MINOR is supposed to knock down the popper.

Local club matches (Level 1) have the option of giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt if they do not have access to a Chrono.

Lets use the chrono to determine PF and not poppers.

[diehli]

Lets use the chrono to determine PF and not poppers.

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Amen.

[GuildSF4]

Lets use the chrono to determine PF and not poppers.

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I agree with this, I also think popper design may need re-thinking/standardizing so it is less susceptible to wind/ poor setting...

[BDH]

[slight thread drift]

I think a lot of this is eliminated if the range staff watches their steel. We have been told many times to 'manage your steel' and what is being referred to is paying attention to the steel so that it never gets out of calibration.

I usually try to remember to go downrange and inspect steel every other squad or so. If it is getting heavy, I lighten it up. I also check to make sure that it is staying firmly staked, and that the eyebolt has not loosened up if it has an activator. When adjusting it, I set it as light as possible, so that it will go down every time, yet still stays up reliably.

Using that practice, I had a total of one re-shoot (from steel out of calibration) over both the 2004 and 2005 Nationals. Why did I have the one?? Well, I got lazy, or distracted or whatever, and I did not manage my steel which let it get out of calibration'. 100% my fault, but then again, one reshoot due to bad steel over the last two Nationals isn't a bad track record.....

[/slight thread drift]

[JayWord]

I agree with Brian. Over the years I have always set my steel as light as I could keep it up in the wind. I have less than 5 times in 25+ Nationals. There has been several times where the shooter pounds on the steel and it will not go down because a cable got hooked for an activator. You try to stop that from happening, but having the squads set steel sometimes lends itself to that happening since they are not as aware of where the cable has to stay. We have used deadmen, pulleys and other methods to insure the cables pull consistantly, but sometimes it just hapens.

On another issue. I have had very poor luck finding 120 PF 9MM factory ammo anywhere. Anyone have a source that can be relied on? Remember the RMs are not trying to go 125.00001 PF

Jay

[BDH]

On another issue. I have had very poor luck finding 120 PF 9MM factory ammo anywhere. Anyone have a source that can be relied on? Remember the RMs are not trying to go 125.00001 PF 

Jay

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FYI, I took my new G17 to Barry with some ammo for Chronoman to play with. UMC 9mm 115 gr was just shy of 127 PF. Also, you may want to tag Greg as I think there was one other factory load that generally shot slightly lower PF but I can't think of it off the top of my head...

[XRe]

Heh. Carry around a single stage press, associated tools, and loading components for 9mm. Have Chronoman help you dial in an exactly 125PF load for the match conditions. Load twice as many as you have poppers in the match. Every popper will then be calibrated against exactly 125PF for that match!!!

Ok, that's a little obsessive-compulsive, but....

[Chuck Anderson]

"FYI, I took my new G17 to Barry with some ammo for Chronoman to play with. UMC 9mm 115 gr was just shy of 127 PF. Also, you may want to tag Greg as I think there was one other factory load that generally shot slightly lower PF but I can't think of it off the top of my head... "

That's the load that I was using and it made 133 pf in my Glock 17 at Area 1, 3 and Nationals

[mactiger]

Federal BallistiClean 9mm, with 100 gr. jacketed CQT bullets made a consistent 121 PF out of my Glock 17 at Nationals. The muzzle velocity on the box is listed at 1230 fps. I shot several calibration challenges. Only one failed to fall, and that one had been hit dead center originally. When I looked at it prior to shooting it, it looked pretty heavy to me (the CRO was not "managing" his steel, obviously--and it wasn't Brian). The other challenges I shot were originally hit either low or on the very edge, or at an angle on the edge...not good hits, in other words, and they all went down quickly.

We always instruct the staff to keep up with their steel, examining the poppers periodically for loose set bolts, loose eyebolts, damage, etc. This, IMO, goes a long way toward eliminating the type of popper calibration challenge where there is something amiss with the steel, the shooter hits it several times to no avail, yet the calibration shot knocks it over. The shooter invariably gets hosed on these, but the rules determine what we can do.

I like Paul's solution to this problem. Next time we are working on rules, this should be one of the primary things addressed.

Troy

[BDH]

That's the load that I was using and it made 133 pf in my Glock 17 at Area 1, 3 and Nationals

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Well, this stuff came out of a full case that I bought probably 4 or 5 years ago (don't shoot much 9 mm). It would certainly be from a different lot, and maybe they changed the mix over the years....

Federal BallistiClean ™ 9mm, with 100 gr. jacketed CQT bullets made a consistent 121 PF out of my Glock 17 at Nationals.

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Thanks for the tip. I'll pick some up before I head South in a couple of weeks...

[mactiger]

You can always load some, since the rules no longer specify factory OR 9mm.

Just a thought.

Troy

[BDH]

You can always load some, since the rules no longer specify factory OR 9mm.

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I HATE loading 9 mm (but will shut up now).....