Reshoots At Nationals

[XRe]

As a range lawyer, do you charge your clients by the question or by the case?

For some, I'll even do pro-bono!!! I'm a generous guy!!

If I stop a shooter for this situation, the first think I will do is inspect the target for obvious problem areas such as a pin backing out, the adjustment nut working lose, or in the case of a plate checking on why it would not fall, perhaps a broken hinge. At that time a call for the RM to calibrate a popper would be in order. If it falls then perhaps a trip to the chronograph is in order, but I have stopped him/her and they are entitled to a reshoot.

So, your understanding would be that you (as an RO) would have to stop the shooter mid-course in order for this rule to apply?? Otherwise, it's normal popper calibration procedures??

In the "wind" case above, the popper was down at the end of the stage - yet the shooter was apparently granted a reshoot due to the wind holding the popper up. The shooter was not stopped mid-course. Do you know what rule allows a reshoot in this scenario??? (I'm not trying to badger you, Gary - sorry if it seems that way - just trying to understand what the scoop is...)

I don't think this is something that will be done very often, but in extrodinary circumstances, it is justified, IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apparently, the "wind hold-up" is at least a little more common than "extraordinary" (well, here in Texas we get a lot of nice wind, anyhow...).... Note - I'm not looking for whether this was the "right" thing to do, or not - I'm trying to understand if there's a rule that allows the re-shoot to happen in this case....

[Gary Stevens]

I don't know anything about that situation, other than what has been related here. I'll try to contact Troy/Ray and see what the real story was.

I don't think (well actually I know) there is a specific rule about strong winds holding poppers up. I just don't know what to say about this situation, but I'll try to get the straight scoop.

To answer one of your other questions though, yes I do think that this rule comes into play when the RO takes the course away from the shooter. At that time the shooter is out of the loop, and the RO must justify their actions, which is why I say that I think this is something that is not going to be seen on a routine basis.

Gary

[GeorgeInNePa]

Interesting discussion about the popper not going down due to wind holding it up. I had not heard about that... 

At least I had simple re-shoots, and if I remember correctly, only had two of them. One was for a target pasted prematurely, and I can't even remember what the other one was for, but it was also straitforward.

[slight thread drift]

I really felt bad for the shooter who had to re-shoot because of a pasted target. It was his last stage of the entire Open/L10 match. He had a great run, and said 'finally, about time that I whipped a stage here' and he was really happy. Unfortunately, about half way through scoring, we came to a target that had just been pasted forcing the re-shoot. At that point the 're-shoot demons' took over and while the shooter had a faster time, he ran by one of the targets resulting in a 2 Mike, 1 FTE, which completely screwed him. I felt horrible, but there wasn't anything I could do.... 

[/slight thread drift]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you think you felt bad, try being the fool that taped it.

In my defense, let me say that I heard you call out 2 Alpha and taped 2 Alpha. I thought you were right behind me, I didn't know you were calling the target behind me.

It's ok, he got over it, after he stole the ice cold beer I had gotten for myself from Larry and made me go get another.

[XRe]

I don't think (well actually I know) there is a specific rule about strong winds holding poppers up.  I just don't know what to say about this situation, but I'll try to get the straight scoop.

That would definitely be cool! Heck, Troy might enlighten us, himself, even

To answer one of your other questions though, yes I do think that this rule comes into play when the RO takes the course away from the shooter.  At that time the shooter is out of the loop, and the RO must justify their actions, which is why I say that I think this is something that is not going to be seen on a routine basis.

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, fair enough. Thanks for getting me straight

[BDH]

In my defense, let me say that I heard you call out 2 Alpha and taped 2 Alpha. I thought you were right behind me, I didn't know you were calling the target behind me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, you didn't hear me call out anything as I wasn't the RO (I was on the clipboard). Also, I certainly was not trying to 'finger' anyone as this was just one of those things that happens. All that said, still hate to see a good run down the tubes, but so be it.....

[.40AET]

I'll try to contact Troy/Ray and see what the real story was.

Gary- That would ideal. Some information from the top down would go a long way to clear the waters.

If you are refering to Ray Hirst, let him know to brush up on this topic. It will be my first question at the RO class that he's conducting next month.

Thanks!

[brother bad]

Had a guy get a reshoot on my squad (at the Open Nationals) yesterday.  After he accepted the alpha/mike/noshoot (on a shot that drifted into the noshoot, just inside (by 1/16") the perf), signed his score sheet. and six more shooters...shot the stage...he complained that the no-shoot had a "non-standard perf" and the RM bought it.

Yeah, our squad ribbed him about it unmercifully...but he got his reshoot (and although was three seconds slower, he didn't have the mike/no-shoot...or the OTHER two mikes...).

Positively a Darst-ardly thing to pull, but it worked for him.  I just couldn't do something like that with a straight face, but hell, whatever floats your boat.

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...he complained that the no-shoot had a "non-standard perf" and the RM bought it.

what was non-standard about the perf??? and if it was non-standard, should everyone that hit it also get a re-shoot?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no one else hit it.

perf WAS notstandard; the target was defective. nothing for the rm to 'buy'; it was simply a mis-stamped target. (not something you normally run across).

<shrug> so it goes.

[Flexmoney]

...after he signed his score sheet?

That just isn't the rules.

[sfinney]

Shouldn't these reshoots situations have required Arbitration, if the current rulebook had been applied as written to each occurence listed above?

The breakdown here seems to be many decisons were being made outside of the rulebook, on the spot....

I thought the whole Arbitration thing is there for a reason.... to avoid having every little thing become grounds for a reshoot, etc, giving to much favor to any one particular shooter, slowing down the match, etc.

Fear of losing the $100 not only cuts down on frivoulous ruling requests that slows the match down, but also cuts down on any one competitor asking for multiple rulings over multiple stages (we've all shot with one of those guys ).

If you feel strongly about the situation put up the $100.

After paying the $100, and the RM finds in your favor, so be it.

But at least we'd be following a process.

And once you sign your score sheet, it should be a done deal.

[Flexmoney]

It didn't go to arb. because the shooters didn't ask for the reshoots (from what I understand of the first two points of this discussion).

[XRe]

It didn't go to arb. because the shooters didn't ask for the reshoots (from what I understand of the first two points of this discussion).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Their squad mates did the asking/convincing, from what I gathered... the descriptions suggested that the reshoots weren't granted w/o a request, whether it was 3rd party or not... IOW, they weren't just granted automatically by the range staff on those stages.

[brother bad]

Falling steel targets are the most unfair aspect of USPSA/IPSC shooting. The targets and/or the rules need a revamp. But I can't think of how to make them fair and workable, can you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it took years, but a couple guys at my club came up w/a popper design that is nearly windproof (unless you've got 50 mph gusts, of course).

the pivot for the popper is made of round stock, attached directly to the popper itself across the bottom. the popper fits into a detachable base which has angle iron pivot points supporting the round stock; they basically 'cup' the stock.

btw, the wind blows in southwest oklahoma about 357 days a year and it's not a gentle breeze, as a rule. prevailing wind direction is from the s/west, but that also varies, sometimes wildly.

you can knock these poppers over w/a .22, btw, but they'll stand up to the average oklahoma/texas area winds all day long.

also, for what it's worth (since it's been suggested that steel be spot painted after a competitor completes a cof) we repaint poppers/steel on every reset; then there's no question about where the hit is located. not everyone does this, i'm sure, but it's to your benefit to do so if the range officers on a given stage don't or can't do it for you.

<shrug>

ymmv

[Gary Stevens]

OK, straight skinney about the wind driven pepper popper.

The RM was called to the stage for a calibration check. He checked out the popper and observed 3 dead center hits on the popper, which was still standing. He also observed that the lock nut had worked lose and the bolt had backed out causing the popper to have a very heavy set. The RM fully expected the popper to stand up during calibration because of the heavy set. When struck it went back, waivered, and fell over. The RM stated that at the time he shot it the air was dead calm. The CRO stated to the RM that when the shooter had been running the stage the wind was blowing fairly hard. The RM made a decision that it was possible that a combination of the wind and a heavy set on the popper due to a lock nut backing off, and 3 observable center hits, deserved a reshoot.

I feel sure that had the popper not have had a lose lock nut, a backed out set bolt, and a heavy set, the wind would not have came into play during the calibration decision.

The RM also told me that another reshoot discussed in this thread was granted not because of a popper issue, but that the score sheet had no time recorded and the timer had already reset.

Gary

[TDean]

So by the rules the shooter deserved a mike. It's interesting that at our sports largest, most important event, the rules weren't followed.

[sfinney]

It didn't go to arb. because the shooters didn't ask for the reshoots (from what I understand of the first two points of this discussion).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The shooter didn't ask for arbitration.... but if the rules had been followed strictly, they should have been forced to.

And I was refering more to the "non-standard perf" incident....

[shred]

The RM was called to the stage for a calibration check.  He checked out the popper and observed 3 dead center hits on the popper, which was still standing.  He also observed that the lock nut had worked lose and the bolt had backed out causing the popper to have a very heavy set.  The RM fully expected the popper to stand up during calibration because of the heavy set.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can't the RM just declare 'reshoot' without doing the calibration shot, if they think the popper set is truly bad, during the much-ignored 'visual inspection' portion of the calibration-check.. as in the old 'rock in the mechanism' example that was around for years?

[SteveZ]

The RM was called to the stage for a calibration check.  He checked out the popper and observed 3 dead center hits on the popper, which was still standing.  He also observed that the lock nut had worked lose and the bolt had backed out causing the popper to have a very heavy set.  The RM fully expected the popper to stand up during calibration because of the heavy set.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can't the RM just declare 'reshoot' without doing the calibration shot, if they think the popper set is truly bad.. as in the old 'rock in the mechanism' example that was around for years?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think in Gary's example...the RM was called to the stage simply to re-cal the popper. As Gary pointed out earlier, once the RO stops the shooter (because of the suspected problem with the popper)...the RO bought the stage...and the shooter is getting a reshoot regardless.

[Gary Stevens]

I should add a bit of further information. On both stages the poppers were standing when the RM arrived. Both poppers fell when hit by the calibration gun. On one stage it would have been scored as a miss, but there was no time on the score sheet, therefore reshoot.

On the other stage it was not the RM's sole decision to grant the reshoot. He and the CRO discussed the issue, all the relevant points, and decided that a reshoot could be justified under all of the circumstances in total.

Working as an RO-CRO-RM often requires a balancing act between the printed words of the rule book and what you know is the right thing to do under all the circumstances, IMO. Everyone looks at the world differently. If someone wants to be a letter of the law RO, that is fine and I will never fault them. I guess I choose a more broad vision of what an RO is task to do.

Gary

[Flexmoney]

I think we can all agree that some of the steel at the Nationals sucked.

I can think of 4 other instances of questionable steel....three of which likely changed the outcome of the top-10 in Production.

[CRubio]

I have no problem with the reshoot due to the score sheet without the time. But I disagree with the subjective decision of the RM/CRO to give a reshoot under what they considered to be unusual circumstances.

The rules we have in place are there to try and eliminate as much of the subjectivity as possible in order to make it fair to all competitors. Sometimes they work in your favor and sometimes they don't (I have certainly been on both sides of the line) but as long as they are applied the in same way to everyone, I have no problems with it.

The RM was called for a calibration. Regardless of whether there were 3 or 10 hits on the steel, if it went down when shot by the RM, it was a miss. IMHO, of course.

Don't we just love these lively conversations?

Carlos

[XRe]

First, Gary, thank you so much for gathering the appropriate info!!!! I do very much appreciate what you mean re: doing the right thing. I think that should always be the intention of the match staff.

No time on score sheet, well, that one is easy to understand

However, with the other one, I think Carlos, Sean, and Tom have it right. The rulebook should have been followed. It would appear that the CRO or RM could have inspected the popper and deemed it to have failed under 4.6.1, and granted a reshoot that way (after all, the target was visibly not in good working order when the RM arrived, right?). Failing that, if the calibration failed, by the rules it would be a miss, and then the shooter could arbitrate (and, given the state of the equipment - and the testimony of the CRO, RM, etc - almost surely would have won the arbitration). But, the match officials shouldn't be making things up as they go - even if they have the absolute best intentions (which would certainly seem to be the case, here). There were two possible avenues within the rules to get the right result, there - wind shouldn't have even been mentioned with regards to being part of the reason for a reshoot (at least until the rules are changed to include changing weather as a reason to reshoot a course... )

Failure to do so leads to all sorts of speculation - including the often heard, but generally unproveable "The Super Squad Gets Special Treatment". This is, after all, partially what arbitration is for, right? The rules can be changed if they don't work - but we have to follow what we have to be fair to everyone in the match. Arbitration helps handle the special cases where the rules end up being incomplete or provide for an unfair situation for a shooter.

Again, let me say, I fully trust and believe that the match officials did what they felt was right, and were trying to provide the fairest possible situation to the shooter. I know I'm armchair quarterbacking, here - and I apologize for using the benefits of hindsight. I don't intend any insult or slight towards Troy, Ray, or the other match officials involved.

Shred, the popper calibration procedures no longer state a specific visual inspection - they *do* mention "In the absence of any interference...", but it isn't obvious what would be included in "interference". One would imagine this could be considered interference to the proper function of the popper - or could be ruled Range Equipment failure, either way.

Steven - the RO never stopped the shooter in these cases.

[TDean]

Dave(XRe), you have the gift of being able to communicate very well. If I may, I'd like to say "ya, what he said", especially the part about not wanting to insult or slight the officials involved.

I like this forum. Good folks.

[Wakal]

On the "popper" case...interesting. The popper was engaged but did not fall. The calibration shot caused the popper to fall. A reshoot was given instead of a mike. I'll have to read the rulebook very carefully to find that logic...must be in there somewhere, since this was the Nationals!

On the "non-standard perf" case...I saw the RO use one overlay as a straight-edge and another to check the hole...I taped the target. I saw the shooter accept the mike/noshoot score. I saw the shooter sign his scoresheet. I watched the shooter borrow a rulebook several shooters later, and I watched him later complain to the RO and (in turn) the RM. And I watched that shooter get a reshoot on a stage he tanked (several other mikes, not just the one on the noshoot). Again...I'll have to check the rulebook carefully for the part about getting reshoots after signing your scoresheet...over target "malfuctions"...without a arb fee. Of course, that shooter ended up (due to the reshoot) winning his class so I guess it worked out fine in the end.

Alex

[BritinUSA]

From the description of the events it appears that things happened in the wrong order.

When the steel was examined there were three hits on the steel and the RO noticed a problem with the hinges on the steel.

I agree with a previous poster that stated that any hit above the horizontal line where the curve of the circle meets the straight edge should be called a valid hit.

I thought that the rules required that the popper be examined before calibration to see if range equipment failure was a possible cause. From the description this sounds like it was the case.

In which case the steel should be fixed/replaced (automatic reshoot) once the steel is replaced then the RO can do a calibration to ensure that in future events it will fall as planned.

But I just checked the rule book and that is no longer in there. Maybe I just imagined it...

Actually section 4.6 seems relevant in this case... it's not listed as a cross-reference in appendix C1 (the bit about the popper calibration)

[driver8M3]

on the "wind" stage (stage 6), i thought the shooter eventually knocked down the popper. i was there, but the poppers were blocked by the wall. still, i'm pretty sure he knocked it down.

on stage 8, i KNOW that popper was shot down on a makeup shot. it was up when the RM arrived b/c they worked on it, and set it back up for a calibration shot.