Do you like the new Production rules?

[JPetrowski]

It says under cutting the trigger guard and removing finger grooves are allowed. Unless I’m mistaken. 

[JAFO]

6 hours ago, JPetrowski said:

Sorry for having to ask. But, would this allow me to remove the hump on a Glock frame?

 

The revised A4, 21.4 states:

• Grip modifications such as, but not limited to, undercutting/smoothing the trigger guard, adding or removing finger grooves, or adding stippling, grip tape, or checkering are allowed.

 

I would consider recontouring to remove the hump in the same vein as removing the finger grooves.

[HickLife]

Could that potentially include modifying (filing it or slimming it) under the beaver tail to get a higher grip? Its technically part of the grip (your hand touches it at least) and you aren’t adding anything

Also did the changes make is so that you can texture essentially anywhere now or is it still the restricted areas for that?

I don’t really care about the rules change because I am so new but it does seem to me that they left it pretty wide open for modifications for the most part. Like “not limited to” to me is almost an open invitation to completely recontour the grip any way you want


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[JPetrowski]

I really don’t know what to do. You can’t add a beaver tail or thumb rest. But really your just making the one already there even more defined. I for one want to get the under cut and grip reduced to remove the hump. I also don’t want to do this and find out I’ll be shooting limited.  Although with my skills, it won’t matter. lol 

[JAFO]

19 hours ago, HickLife said:

Could that potentially include modifying (filing it or slimming it) under the beaver tail to get a higher grip? Its technically part of the grip (your hand touches it at least) and you aren’t adding anything

Also did the changes make is so that you can texture essentially anywhere now or is it still the restricted areas for that?

I don’t really care about the rules change because I am so new but it does seem to me that they left it pretty wide open for modifications for the most part. Like “not limited to” to me is almost an open invitation to completely recontour the grip any way you want


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The first part is a little grey.  You are increasing the functionality of the beavertail (making it bigger) if you file up into it, and that's not allowed.  If you are just slimming the circumference without going up higher, that would probably be OK.

 

As for texturing, you can do that anywhere on your frame that you want.  They have removed the reference to App E4.  However, you cannot mill texture into your slide or add grip tape to it. 

 

21.2a	Slide and Frame Refinishing	Cosmetically enhancing the finish of a slide and/or frame is ALLOWED in Production Division, provided that the finish provides no competitive advantage, and subject to the existing constraints on refinishing (cosmetic only, no competitive advantage.)
21.2b	Milling of Slide	A slide may be modified specifically for installing sights, and for no other purpose.

[radny97]

It just means that the division name of ‘production’ is somewhat misleading. They should rename the division to the “Limited 10 Minor PF with Only Certain Guns Allowed” Division. It’s not really ‘production’ any more. But then again it never really was. 

Even better, now that the FBI has concluded that there’s no substantial performance difference between 9mm, 40 and 45 on real targets, USPSA ought to get rid of making minor versus major PF. I know it will never happen. But that’s only because there’s huge resistance to effecting institutional change when things have been done a certain way for so long. 

[IHAVEGAS]

38 minutes ago, radny97 said:

But that’s only because there’s huge resistance to effecting institutional change when things have been done a certain way for so long. 

 

Not true for me. Minor allows accuracy to be more of an equalizer and major is just a different kind of a thrill. My local club does a Friday - Saturday shoot each month, Friday. I shoot a Tanfo 9mm stock 2 in Production & Saturday I shoot a Stock 2 in 40 (fo-tey) in limited major, the difference in the experience is night & day & the planning changes a bit when Charles do not hurt much and a Delta is not about the same as a no penalty Mike.  

[IHAVEGAS]

48 minutes ago, radny97 said:

Even better, now that the FBI has concluded that there’s no substantial performance difference between 9mm, 40 and 45 on real targets, USPSA ought to get rid of making minor versus major PF.

 

It is a bit off topic but I read the same thing in the latest USPSA mag (area 1 candidate) and could not think of any reason why 99.97% of USPSA shooters would care what the FBI concluded about gun wounds or want it to effect their preferred pastime. If I was going to write up some sort of a trolling topic to rile up the shooters this might be it  . 

 

 

[radny97]

8 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

It is a bit off topic but I read the same thing in the latest USPSA mag (area 1 candidate) and could not think of any reason why 99.97% of USPSA shooters would care what the FBI concluded about gun wounds or want it to effect their preferred pastime. If I was going to write up some sort of a trolling topic to rile up the shooters this might be it  . 

 

 

 

That sounds like a dare! But I’ll pass on this one. I don’t feel like getting flamed for two weeks while everyone chimes in. Haha. 

[IHAVEGAS]

18 minutes ago, radny97 said:

 

That sounds like a dare! But I’ll pass on this one. I don’t feel like getting flamed for two weeks while everyone chimes in. Haha. 

 

Not intentional. Good call!

[redpillregret]

As a relative newbie I thought PF to be silly from the get-go. Not my rules. It’s a game I want to play. It isn’t real life.


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[IHAVEGAS]

 

19 hours ago, redpillregret said:

As a relative newbie I thought PF to be silly from the get-go. Not my rules. It’s a game I want to play. It isn’t real life.
 

 

That is how I see it, a game. 

I think when we see people carry pcc's or wear their limited - open - revolver rigs in real life for self protection, then it might be time to relate game rules to real life. Probably a minimum trigger weight should come first. 

[RJH]

I would be fine with no major/minor, as long as we got rid of popper calibration too.  Just go with steel must fall to score, and if a 40 or 45 knocks it down and a 9 don't, you could right to the FBI and explain the unfairness. 

[radny97]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I would be fine with no major/minor, as long as we got rid of popper calibration too.  Just go with steel must fall to score, and if a 40 or 45 knocks it down and a 9 don't, you could right to the FBI and explain the unfairness. 

 

I would be fine with that too.

Major/minor is another element to the game that i view as an effort by USPSA to acknowledge the advantage that higher energy rounds supposedly give in real life. In other words, you don’t have to be as accurate with higher energy rounds because they do more damage on the target. Well, after lots of testing the FBI has concluded that premise is not true (kind of). So if that’s the rationale, the major/minor thing seems to be based on outdated information. 

You can also look at it as USPSA trying to level the playing field between calibers that have different recoil impulses. But if that’s the case it’s also been a failure because high capacity 40 guns seem to dominate (in limited). And with 40 becoming a disfavored (or at least much less popular) caliber among law enforcement and the private market, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for USPSA rules to favor (inadvertently or otherwise) a caliber that is on the decline. 

Let the flaming begin, haha. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by radny97

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I would be fine with no major/minor, as long as we got rid of popper calibration too.  Just go with steel must fall to score, and if a 40 or 45 knocks it down and a 9 don't, you could right to the FBI and explain the unfairness. 

 

I hate the full sized poppers. Even with major sometimes you get hosed (reshoot or failure to fall) due to wind, target stand shifting in muddy ground, target reacting differently depending on which side of scoring zone you hit, ad nauseam. 

 

And they are a pain to drag around. 

 

Plates & smaller poppers are not perfect, but given the opportunity I leave the big stuff in the shed. 

[IHAVEGAS]

12 minutes ago, radny97 said:

Major/minor is another element to the game that i view as an effort by USPSA to acknowledge the advantage that higher energy rounds supposedly give in real life.

 

Major/minor will get you killed in a real gun fight. 

[Mcfoto]

6 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I hate the full sized poppers. Even with major sometimes you get hosed (reshoot or failure to fall) due to wind, target stand shifting in muddy ground, target reacting differently depending on which side of scoring zone you hit, ad nauseam. 

 

And they are a pain to drag around. 

 

Plates & smaller poppers are not perfect, but given the opportunity I leave the big stuff in the shed. 

 

Not me. Since I’ve gone major, I love them big poppers. No matter where I hit them, down they go. But as I’m on our set up crew, I would agree that they’re a PITA to set up.

[Steve RA]

Major/Minor originated when about all that was being used were .45ACP and 9mm.  Back then a lot of people shot factory ammo and there is quite a bit of recoil difference between those two calibers .

[RJH]

OK for all you FBI data nuthuggers, momentum is not taken into account.  Also the FBI is looking for a specific goal, x expansion and x penetration, now that 9 luger can meet these goals people want to think the rounds are equal, they are not.  If the goal is 165, or heaven forbid 180 PF, have fun blowing up your non comped 9s.What if the goal is energy?  the 9 falls woefully short there too.  Penetration you say, nope with ball ammo in real world targets the 9 gets crushed by the 40.  So it appears that when you download the 40 and run the 9 mm at pretty much the top end the 9 can match the 40 and 45 in a specific test to meet specific goals, but stray out side that test and the 9 starts showing a lack of power rather quickly.  USPSA has nothing todo with the FBI and I hope it stays that way, and nothing says that any sport has to take into account FBI results.  USPSA set rules for a broader spectrum of power and the 9 is a bottom feeder in that field, so if you want to shoot 9 either suck it up and shoot minor, or suck it up and shoot open.  Now please sit down, shut up, and quit trying to ruin my sport, y'all have a nice day

[radny97]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

OK for all you FBI data nuthuggers, momentum is not taken into account.  Also the FBI is looking for a specific goal, x expansion and x penetration, now that 9 luger can meet these goals people want to think the rounds are equal, they are not.  If the goal is 165, or heaven forbid 180 PF, have fun blowing up your non comped 9s.What if the goal is energy?  the 9 falls woefully short there too.  Penetration you say, nope with ball ammo in real world targets the 9 gets crushed by the 40.  So it appears that when you download the 40 and run the 9 mm at pretty much the top end the 9 can match the 40 and 45 in a specific test to meet specific goals, but stray out side that test and the 9 starts showing a lack of power rather quickly.  USPSA has nothing todo with the FBI and I hope it stays that way, and nothing says that any sport has to take into account FBI results.  USPSA set rules for a broader spectrum of power and the 9 is a bottom feeder in that field, so if you want to shoot 9 either suck it up and shoot minor, or suck it up and shoot open.  Now please sit down, shut up, and quit trying to ruin my sport, y'all have a nice day

 

Hahahaha! See!?!? Just as i predicted. 

[radny97]

So, if major/minor has nothing to do with the idea that higher energy rounds inflict greater damage to targets and therefore you don’t need to shoot as accurately, then what is it about? 

Edited May 10, 2018 by radny97

[RJH]

1 hour ago, radny97 said:

So, if major/minor has nothing to do with the idea that higher energy rounds inflict greater damage to targets and therefore you don’t need to shoot as accurately, then what is it about? 

It is the rules, I am beginning to think you have some brain damage.  And you seemed to miss the part about shut up and quit ruining my day

Edited May 10, 2018 by RJH

[redpillregret]

So, if major/minor has nothing to do with the idea that higher energy rounds inflict greater damage to targets and therefore you don’t need to shoot as accurately, then what is it about? 

Egos.


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[redpillregret]

OK for all you FBI data nuthuggers, momentum is not taken into account.  Also the FBI is looking for a specific goal, x expansion and x penetration, now that 9 luger can meet these goals people want to think the rounds are equal, they are not.  If the goal is 165, or heaven forbid 180 PF, have fun blowing up your non comped 9s.What if the goal is energy?  the 9 falls woefully short there too.  Penetration you say, nope with ball ammo in real world targets the 9 gets crushed by the 40.  So it appears that when you download the 40 and run the 9 mm at pretty much the top end the 9 can match the 40 and 45 in a specific test to meet specific goals, but stray out side that test and the 9 starts showing a lack of power rather quickly.  USPSA has nothing todo with the FBI and I hope it stays that way, and nothing says that any sport has to take into account FBI results.  USPSA set rules for a broader spectrum of power and the 9 is a bottom feeder in that field, so if you want to shoot 9 either suck it up and shoot minor, or suck it up and shoot open.  Now please sit down, shut up, and quit trying to ruin my sport, y'all have a nice day

As someone who has seen a fair amount of handgun wounds firsthand, it does not matter...9mm, .40, or .45, they all suck when it comes to “power”. Shot placement is key.

I don’t think abandoning the notion that using a .40 or .45 means one doesn’t need to be as accurate would ruin a sport. It’s just a game.


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[radny97]

So the rules are Arbitrary, or in other words, not based on anything,  including not based on whether higher energy rounds do or do not cause greater damage to targets?  Don’t touch the rules because they are sacrosanct? 

I’m not even proposing a rule change. I’m just suggesting that the current rules for major/minor are inconsistent with the best current information regarding the differences between high-energy and lower energy rounds. Sorry if that makes you feel threatened.