Do you like the new Production rules?

[Lee G]

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20180209 17b Change Log App D4.pdf

[tkheard]

I get a 404 error in the posted link.

[wtturn]

There's not much "production" about the new rules.

[louu]

Need another choice that says "Stop changing the f*#king rules!" Especially if they don't plan on printing and shipping a new book!

[ChuckS]

21 minutes ago, tkheard said:

I get a 404 error in the posted link.

go here for for all the meetin minutes: https://uspsa.org/bod_minutes

You need to be logged into the site for the link to work...

[ngodwetrust21]

Good idea with the poll. Excited to see how this turns out. 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, louu said:

Need another choice that says "Stop changing the f*#king rules!" Especially if they don't plan on printing and shipping a new book!

 

Why print a new rule book when there is a ruling every other week that subverts it.......

 

I think we should all just  get our own personal rulings in emails form DNROI, problems solved

[StuckinMS]

We hadn't had a new rule book since 2014.  USPSA  has added 2 divisions since and changed a lot of rules.  At some point the rules should stop being amended and a single new book printed.  ROs all the way up to the match directors need a single source to make rulings from.  Just set a schedule to print a new book every 3-4 years and 0 rule changes go into affect until the new book has been released.  This is getting out of hand and slowing the process down.  

[floater]

Need 1 more choice, like but dislike. I liked the fact that you had a place to shoot a stock gun, but on the other hand neat stuff to bling out a blaster. Still think those who are at the top of the leader board are going to stay at the top, even with a new trigger.

[audani77]

Reading the rules does this Change the weight in Carry Optics as well to allowing 4 oz over the max weight?

[YVK]

I shoot production and I don't care one way or another.

[casarez]

29 minutes ago, audani77 said:

Reading the rules does this Change the weight in Carry Optics as well to allowing 4 oz over the max weight?

 

No, CO still has a posted maximum weight unfortunately. you would think they would have done what you said and simplified everything.

[audani77]

9 hours ago, casarez said:

 

No, CO still has a posted maximum weight unfortunately. you would think they would have done what you said and simplified everything.

yeah that's what I was thinking as well.  I mean since CO takes majority of the rules from production.  I guess for Production since the CZ's have been dominate they needed to change the rules for others to keep up.  So far I think the ones with complaints about the Production rules that I have seen on the inter webs have been the CZ crowd.

[B_RAD]

Not sure why so many people agree with the new rules?  

 

 

[kipdynamite]

10 hours ago, casarez said:

 

No, CO still has a posted maximum weight unfortunately. you would think they would have done what you said and simplified everything.

Doesn't now allowing "through slide cuts" to cut weight sort of mitigate the max. weight limit?

[mstamper]

1 hour ago, kipdynamite said:

Doesn't now allowing "through slide cuts" to cut weight sort of mitigate the max. weight limit?

I thought I read that you can NOW DO slide cuts / ports. NO barrel porting or comps

[2MoreChains]

Typo or intentional?  New version of App D4 says 1 1/2”.  Current RB says 1/2”.  

 

Feb 9, 2018 version:

20: Holster and Magazine Holder restrictions • Suitable for everyday use.  Race Gun type holsters prohibited • May not be manufactured or cut lower than, and must cover the slide up to, 1 1/2” below the ejection port (belt slide “Yaqui” type holster is exempt • Revolver holsters open no lower than halfway down the cylinder • The drop offset type holster is allowed in Production division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2, and the rest of the criteria are met • Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch.  Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means. 

 

Currently in the 2014 RB:

20: Holster and magazine holder restrictions •Suitable for everyday use. “Race gun” type holster prohibited. •May not be manufactured or cut lower than, and must cover the slide up to, 1/2” below the ejection port (belt slide “Yaqui” type holster exempt). •Revolver holsters open no lower than halfway down the cylinder. •The drop offset type holster is allowed in production Division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 

[mjmagee67]

This is a good thing for better or worse.

 

First there are so many different parts for gun that look basically factory that the old rules package was becoming unenforceable. Every RO and CRO would have to spend hours learning all the legal parts it's just not feasible.

 

Second, it brings other manufacturers into the sport with sponsorship money for both people and matches. 

 

Third, it gives people more options to customize their gun to fit them. Now it you have small hands you can use a aftermarket short reach trigger. As long as it functions the same as the factory trigger. 

 

Forth, it's just not going to drive the cost of Production up that much. We all spend a butt ton on money on our Production guns.  

[casarez]

12 hours ago, kipdynamite said:

Doesn't now allowing "through slide cuts" to cut weight sort of mitigate the max. weight limit?

 

Yes but if goal was to simplify things...why not just keep the "up to 4oz over OEM weight" rule Prod has?

[casarez]

12 hours ago, B_RAD said:

Not sure why so many people agree with the new rules?  

 

 

 

I understand their explanation for the changes. I am still thinking about it but right now I am not in agreement though. Why not just make Production 'Limited Minor' and make Limited 'Limited Major'. Get rid of Prod and L10. I am not a GM or high level shooter though so I doubt my opinion matters.

[kipdynamite]

47 minutes ago, casarez said:

 

Yes but if goal was to simplify things...why not just keep the "up to 4oz over OEM weight" rule Prod has?

Maybe the there's lobbyists in the USPSA like in DC? Their pockets are getting lined by representatives of all the custom machining shops. Follow the money!  

[B_RAD]

54 minutes ago, casarez said:

 

I understand their explanation for the changes. I am still thinking about it but right now I am not in agreement though. Why not just make Production 'Limited Minor' and make Limited 'Limited Major'. Get rid of Prod and L10. I am not a GM or high level shooter though so I doubt my opinion matters.

I too understand why they say they did it.  I don't think their solution is the correct response to the issues they're using as reasoning. I also understand that it's easy for folks not involved in the operations side of any group/organization to criticize the decisions a governing body makes. Saying that, I personally feel they've moved even further from what production is supposed to be.  From what I've heard(or remember) this is due to things like aftermarket hammers being difficult to distinguish from OEM, or a CZ shadow going to CZC and getting fit for the accushadow bushing and now being illegal since it didn't come from CZC before its first private transfer. As well as the issues with the new guns being made with more "advances" that make them more advantageous than guns that have been around for longer.  Well,…. I think they took the lazy way out! 

 

Aftermarket hammers being to similar to OEM.  Let the shooters self-police (along with equip check). A shooter worried that someone will see this hammer, trigger, or whatever external mod, and could inform equipment check, would deter a lot of would be rule breakers.  You're never gonna catch everyone but let's be honest, most folks that would try to sneak in a mod, aren't going to win anyways!  

 

 As for the sending gun back to custom shops for mods.  First I'd ask if a gun that didn't leave the actual manufacturer with a mod but gets modded at a custom shop should even be legal to start with? Then, I'd say if it's a legal mod, then who cares when it was done? 

 

 And for the "newer guns have more advances making them more competitive" argument.  That's on the shooter who chose that gun!  Though, it's not even a valid argument. Aren't we tired of hearing about the shooters who've won with Glocks?

 

I know these aren't the only reasons why they say they need to make these changes but I feel they are the main ones?

 

This will be my second year shooting USPSA so maybe I'm way off on my understanding of the intent of what production is supposed to be?

Edited February 19, 2018 by B_RAD

[tkane]

Overall I like it, I can easily see the arguments on both sides though.

I don't think the added mods are going to make anyone jump up dramatically in the standings at a match.

Personally I will be much more likely to shoot production when a second run at a local is available instead on L10 or Open with my Limited gun, since I have an M&P setup for ESP all I have to do is take off the magwell. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by tkane

[3djedi]

Any changes to CO? I can't find any info on that. Thanks!

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[BritinUSA]

You need to be logged in to view : https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20180209 17c APPENDIX D7 DNROI.pdf