Do you like the new Production rules?

[RJH]

39 minutes ago, radny97 said:

So the rules are Arbitrary, or in other words, not based on anything,  including not based on whether higher energy rounds do or do not cause greater damage to targets?  Don’t touch the rules because they are sacrosanct? 

I’m not even proposing a rule change. I’m just suggesting that the current rules for major/minor are inconsistent with the best current information regarding the differences between high-energy and lower energy rounds. Sorry if that makes you feel threatened.

 

Once again, all  you are taking into account is the fbi testing. If you can't grasp that there is more to handguns and their cartridges than fbi testing then maybe idpa is the sport for you

[RJH]

1 hour ago, redpillregret said:

 

 

As someone who has seen a fair amount of handgun wounds firsthand, it does not matter...9mm, .40, or .45, they all suck when it comes to “power”. Shot placement is key.

I don’t think abandoning the notion that using a .40 or .45 means one doesn’t need to be as accurate would ruin a sport. It’s just a game.


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I have killed and been around a lot of things killed with pistols 9, 40, &45, and the 40 and 45 do seem to put things down noticeably quicker  than 9mm but I agree that handguns in general are a poor choice. We are talking deer and pigs, not people, but I would have to believe that the results would be similar. 

 

As stated earlier,  when you look at more that one thing (in this case the fbi testing)  and compare all the numbers put up by each cartridge,  you will see the reason that there is major and minor. If you don't think there is any difference when looking at all the information,  then I don't know what to tell you.

[radny97]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

Once again, all  you are taking into account is the fbi testing. If you can't grasp that there is more to handguns and their cartridges than fbi testing then maybe idpa is the sport for you

 

I’m not suggesting that the FBI testing is the end all be all that will ever come down on the subject.  I understand the arguments between foot pounds v. momentum very well. And I do agree with you that there are good criticisms against the foot pounds analysis and in favor of the momentum analysis, as you have implied in your comments.

But the FBI report is the most current information. And it was well funded and thorough.  Can you point me to another modern, expansive, thorough, and well documented and tested study that contradicts the conclusions the FBI reached?

If not then quit trying to kick me out of your sport because you don’t like what I say.

[redpillregret]

I have killed and been around a lot of things killed with pistols 9, 40, &45, and the 40 and 45 do seem to put things down noticeably quicker  than 9mm but I agree that handguns in general are a poor choice. We are talking deer and pigs, not people, but I would have to believe that the results would be similar. 
 
As stated earlier,  when you look at more that one thing (in this case the fbi testing)  and compare all the numbers put up by each cartridge,  you will see the reason that there is major and minor. If you don't think there is any difference when looking at all the information,  then I don't know what to tell you.

Put them down more quickly? With what bullet? There is a lot of variance depending on the load. Energy is virtually equal with the best loads in each cartridge. For instance, 124 gr +p Gold Dot from 9mm has 410 FPE. The 230 gr .45 has only 405. The bad guy won’t be able to tell the difference. One should consider accuracy, splits, and capacity more so than mythical “power” as terminal ratings are indistinguishable.

People are not deer and pigs, physiologically there is quite a bit of difference. When I’m speaking, I’m speaking of human trauma, not pigs and deer.

And to your point, the reason for major and minor, there is no logic. A bad shot from a .45 is no more effective than a bad shot from a 9mm. If anything, it teaches shooters that bad shots are with more “points” because you kiss with a larger gun. But it’s a game and those are the rules of the game. In the real world there are no points.

Anyway, enough of that, back on topic about the game.


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[RJH]

4 minutes ago, redpillregret said:

 

 

Put them down more quickly? With what bullet? There is a lot of variance depending on the load. Energy is virtually equal with the best loads in each cartridge. For instance, 124 gr +p Gold Dot from 9mm has 410 FPE. The 230 gr .45 has only 405. The bad guy won’t be able to tell the difference. One should consider accuracy, splits, and capacity more so than mythical “power” as terminal ratings are indistinguishable.

People are not deer and pigs, physiologically there is quite a bit of difference. When I’m speaking, I’m speaking of human trauma, not pigs and deer.

And to your point, the reason for major and minor, there is no logic. A bad shot from a .45 is no more effective than a bad shot from a 9mm. If anything, it teaches shooters that bad shots are with more “points” because you kiss with a larger gun. But it’s a game and those are the rules of the game. In the real world there are no points.

Anyway, enough of that, back on topic about the game.


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 Several different bullets and I agree people aren't pigs, that is why I specified. Power does matter more in marginal hits in my experience if for no other reason than the ability to break bones and increase penetration. 

 

Also, I like how you cherrypick the energy quotes. You give the 9 a high end loading but not the 45, this is common in the 9 is equal mentality.  Looking at just hornady, cause it is handy,  top  9 loads do 390ish fpe and top 45 loads are 490ish fpe, I am not a rocket scientist but , it looks like about a 20 percent increase in energy to me.   And if we really cherry pick, full power book loads for a forty do 600 fpe out of a 5"gun and 525 fpe  out of a four inch gun. 

[RJH]

36 minutes ago, radny97 said:

 

I’m not suggesting that the FBI testing is the end all be all that will ever come down on the subject.  I understand the arguments between foot pounds v. momentum very well. And I do agree with you that there are good criticisms against the foot pounds analysis and in favor of the momentum analysis, as you have implied in your comments.

But the FBI report is the most current information. And it was well funded and thorough.  Can you point me to another modern, expansive, thorough, and well documented and tested study that contradicts the conclusions the FBI reached?

If not then quit trying to kick me out of your sport because you don’t like what I say.

Here is the flaw with the fbi test.  The fbi said we want ammo to do x, so ammo manufacturers made all kinds of ammo to do x. 40 & 45 have the ability to do more than the fbi requires but the ammo that doesn't get looked at 

[redpillregret]

 Several different bullets and I agree people aren't pigs, that is why I specified. Power does matter more in marginal hits in my experience if for no other reason than the ability to break bones and increase penetration. 
 
Also, I like how you cherrypick the energy quotes. You give the 9 a high end loading but not the 45, this is common in the 9 is equal mentality.  Looking at just hornady, cause it is handy,  top  9 loads do 390ish fpe and top 45 loads are 490ish fpe, I am not a rocket scientist but , it looks like about a 20 percent increase in energy to me.   And if we really cherry pick, full power book loads for a forty do 600 fpe out of a 5"gun and 525 fpe  out of a four inch gun. 

All I did was picking common duty loads. That isn’t “cherry picking”. And a rare load that is 525 FPE from a service pistol in all but boutique cartridges. However, the 115 gr Buffalo Bore 9mm is 500 FPE from 4.9” barrels. Had I chosen that as a comparison, I’d be cherry picking.

Again, this has nothing to do with power factor and is more powerful than anything being shot in games.


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[RJH]

3 minutes ago, redpillregret said:

 

 

All I did was picking common duty loads. That isn’t “cherry picking”. And a rare load that is 525 FPE from a service pistol in all but boutique cartridges. However, the 115 gr Buffalo Bore 9mm is 500 FPE from 4.9” barrels. Had I chosen that as a comparison, I’d be cherry picking.

Again, this has nothing to do with power factor and is more powerful than anything being shot in games.


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What does buffalo bore 40 and 45 do?

[redpillregret]

The hottest .40 load is 580 (and cannot he used in many pistols per ammo manufacturer recommendations) with the hottest load recommended in standard .40 pressures is actually 480 FPE.

 

The hottest non-hard cast defensive .45 is 540 FPE.

 

See what a silly game this is?

 

 

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[RJH]

I remembered that the book loads that I use surpassed the buffalo bore loads, but couldn't remember by how much. 40 is one of the only rounds that a handloader seems to be able to outpace buffalo bore with published loads. I wonder if 45 super would be a  more reasonable comparison to the ultral hot  9s of today.  And interestingly enough, that buffalo bore 9 still doesn't make major.....

Edited May 10, 2018 by RJH

[IHAVEGAS]

My Grandmother on my Fathers side was born on a Friday , so I think that means we should change from 10 + 1 to 11 + 1 mag loading limits. 

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

My Grandmother on my Fathers side was born on a Friday , so I think that means we should change from 10 + 1 to 11 + 1 mag loading limits. 

Exactly 

[HickLife]

Oh I love the old 45 vs 9 debate. It’ll never end. I shoot 9 for capacity (my spare mag has 21rds in it and still conceals super easy) and the fact that i can shoot it faster and more accurately than a 45. In a defense situation a a fraction of a second could be life or death and i can almost guarantee the assailant won’t go down with one shot, trust me I’ve seen it. Unless its a shotgun....

On to the game though, how does a 9 with the same pf of a 45 act? Does it knock down the steel the same or does it have the same issues that were mentioned above? I would think they act the same since they should have the same energy and everything. So power factor could be good for targets that will only fall with a major hit, or it could require 2 consecutive shots from minor (maybe a ratchet type system that doesn’t allow it to completely fall back forward after the first shot). Just a thought




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[radny97]

2 minutes ago, HickLife said:

On to the game though, how does a 9 with the same pf of a 45 act? Does it knock down the steel the same or does it have the same issues that were mentioned above? I would think they act the same since they should have the same energy and everything. So power factor could be good for targets that will only fall with a major hit, or it could require 2 consecutive shots from minor

 

Good questions. I’ve got some 45 loaded that will only make about 140 pf. I might do a comparison on steel. 

I can say that the recoil impulse is about the same as a 9 when loaded that light. 

[pskys2]

Track down some of Jeff Coopers books can't remember which, but he goes into some explanation on the major/minor issue.  He was the driving force behind IPSC.

 

Bullet technology has come a long way from then, but to make the newer 9 loads work you still have to push them harder than standard.  The harder the better also.

 

Also note the Major PF has changed several times from a high of 185, if my memory serves, to 165 now.  It could be changed again if a proper, well reasoned argument was used to convince the leadership.  That would start with convincing an Area Director.

 

Also remember IPSC was originally a test bed for effective gear.  The Major PF put more stress on systems and techniques.  

Maybe the time has come to drop the PF to ?160? and open divisions to sub 40 caliber major?

Edited May 10, 2018 by pskys2

[radny97]

Interesting. Yes possibly dropping the pf and allowing 9mm major in limited might even things up. Or alternatively raising the PF for major to 185 might even things up a little too. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by radny97

[IHAVEGAS]

23 minutes ago, HickLife said:

On to the game though, how does a 9 with the same pf of a 45 act? Does it knock down the steel the same or does it have the same issues that were mentioned above? I would think they act the same since they should have the same energy and everything.
 

 

POWER FACTOR = MOMENTUM = MASS * VELOCITY

 

ENERGY = 0.5 * MASS * VELOCITY * VELOCITY

 

I think standardized testing in schools might have been the beginning of the end for the USA. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by IHAVEGAS

[RJH]

27 minutes ago, radny97 said:

Interesting. Yes possibly dropping the pf and allowing 9mm major in limited might even things up. Or alternatively raising the PF for major to 185 might even things up a little too. 

Yep, you can write that letter to the  fbi about fairness now,  maybe you can get old fat guys a head start too, kinda like bracket racing. Maybe we could all get a vest or something too. Bunch of damn pansies 

Edited May 10, 2018 by RJH

[RJH]

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

POWER FACTOR = MOMENTUM = MASS * VELOCITY

 

ENERGY = 0.5 * MASS * VELOCITY * VELOCITY

 

I think standardized testing in schools might have been the beginning of the end for the USA. 

Haha,  but that don't give the desired results 

[IHAVEGAS]

Participation trophies for everyone!!

 

(Like kids soccer and IDPA) 

[HickLife]

 
POWER FACTOR = MOMENTUM = MASS * VELOCITY
 
ENERGY = 0.5 * MASS * VELOCITY * VELOCITY
 
I think standardized testing in schools might have been the beginning of the end for the USA. 

Wait are you calling me dumb? I don’t care, just making sure I’m interpreting your comment properly.

Also I dropped physics this last semester so there’s that.

I really don’t care either way about pf, its all about shot placement for me, i just want nice precise hits quickly. My suggestion (if possible) could add another competitive side to the game too, can you save time and scoring with 2 quick shots to knock a target down or should you suck up the extra recoil and such and shoot major for the single shot required to take it down.


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[IHAVEGAS]

4 minutes ago, HickLife said:

 

Wait are you calling me dumb?

 

 

No. 

Just playing. 

[HickLife]

 
No. 
Just playing. 

Alrighty, i thought so. I have been called worse though lol


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[radny97]

33 minutes ago, RJH said:

Yep, you can write that letter to the  fbi about fairness now,  maybe you can get old fat guys a head start too, kinda like bracket racing. Maybe we could all get a vest or something too. Bunch of damn pansies 

 

You’re so respectful and pleasant to have a conversation with. 

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, radny97 said:

 

You’re so respectful and pleasant to have a conversation with. 

Really? Most people don't think so haha.  Look I can't help that I am right, and there always seems to be some one whining about the unfairness  of major/minor every few days. The fact is that I called it several post back that your issue would be that it wasn't fair, I think I mentioned writing a letter then too.

 

 If you want to be scored the same as major, then shoot major.  Uspsa powerfactor was set up around momentum,  not what the  fbi,  local sheriff,  me , or you think, but it is not just something pulled out of the sky. If I would have been in charge way back, I would have made major 45 only in all divisions,  but I wasn't so I play the game to the rules we have now. I just find the division I like the most and shoot it with the gun I have that best fits that division, instead of trying to make 50,000 or so active members change their equipment to fit what I like.

 

I guess that actually makes me respectful afterall. Hell, I even tape targets too. I guess I am pleasant 

Edited May 10, 2018 by RJH