Any Excuse For Dropped Gun

[David Benzick]

Hi All,

If a competitor drops a gun during the course of fire, is it ever excused?

For instance I have heard arguments that the RO interfered and caused the drop. I've also heard that a live shotshell was left on the course of fire and caused the slip that led to the drop. I've heard drops blamed on unsafe course design that snagged the gun or tripped the shooter.

However, the competitor is not being DQ'd for the slip or snagging the gun on a prop, he is being DQ'd for the drop, so I say the DQ stands in all cases that the gun hits the dirt during the course of fire.

Is that right?

Thanks

David Benzick

[Shooter Grrl]

I don't have my rulebook here at work - but I'm pretty certain it's VERY clear that any gun drop, for any reason, after LAMR and before Range is Clear is a DQ.

[ErikW]

I sat on an arb committee for a dropped gun DQ at an Area match. The stage props and procedure conspired to knock the gun out of the holster. But we upheld the DQ.

I can't imagine a situation in which it would not be a DQ.

[BrianH]

But we upheld the DQ.

holster not safely retaining the weapon

[BroncoGlenn]

Was shooting a stage where you start in a seated position with gun holstered. At buzzer you move forward about 15 feet and open a window and begin firing. I can't recall what footwear I was wearing, some form of hiking shoe, but when I went to hit the brakes to stop my feet went forward out from under me.

My 4th point of contact promptly wound up on the ground with my left hand out to help cushion the fall. My right simply retained a positive grip on the pistol and kept it pointed downrange. Not that I had time to think about it, it was like an instinctive action in keeping the pistol secure and pointed down range instead of my right hand also going down to break my fall. I was happy with myself in controlling the pistol, but my ego took some bruising.

[alma]

I don't have my rulebook here at work - but I'm pretty certain it's VERY clear that any gun drop, for any reason, after LAMR and before Range is Clear is a DQ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually the course of fire ends once the competitor has holstered the gun and taken his or her hand off of the gun (after the "if clear...")

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his

handgun. Once the competitor’s hands are clear of the holstered

handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.

This means that if you are reholstering your gun after the cof and the gun falls once you take your hand off of it, it is not a match DQ. The gun should then be trated like a dropped gun and you need to get the RO to assist you in retreaving the gun.

The "Range is clear" command is just the siglan that it is ok to go down range to score and tape.

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – Competitors or Range Officials must not

move forward of, or away from, the firing line or final shooting

location until this declaration is given by the Range Officer. Once

the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move forward

to score, patch, reset targets etc.

[mactiger]

There is no "get out of jail free" card when it concerns a dropped gun during a course of fire.

Troy

[GuildSF4]

What Troy said...

[alma]

I guess you could argue that you placed it on the ground if you were close to the ground and if it was in the ready condition (safty on for 1911)

10.5.3

If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading

or unloading, a competitor drops his firearm or causes it to

fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason

during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm

on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with

the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the

ground or another stable object, and

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 1 meter (3.28 feet) of the

handgun at all times, and

10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in

Section 8.1, or

10.5.3.5 A self-loading pistol has the magazine removed and the

slide locked open, or

10.5.3.6 A revolver has the cylinder open and empty.

[carinab]

After shooting prone, I saw a competitor once get a dq for laying a gun down on the ground after getting the "slide down, hammer down, holster" command. The gun was put down so the competitor could get to kneeling safely, then holster. This was a few years ago and I would not be surprised if it were the impetus for the above rule change.

[mactiger]

Very perceptive, Grasshopper!

A mechanism was needed to allow for just this sort of thing, hence the rule change.

It's always a good idea to say that you are going to lay it down, too, just to avoid confusion. Not required, but...

Troy

After shooting prone, I saw a competitor once get a dq for laying a gun down on the ground after getting the "slide down, hammer down, holster" command.  The gun was put down so the competitor could get to kneeling safely, then holster.  This was a few years ago and I would not be surprised if it were the impetus for the above rule change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[driver8M3]

i've seen ROs take control of malfunctioning guns, mostly to help a newer shooter. what happens if the RO drops the gun?

[alma]

The only time an RO would be able to take the gun is if the shooter can not continue and the RO ends the CoF. The shooter would not be able to continue shooting the course after the RO helped clear the gun.

That being said, I have helped new shooters clear death jams while ROing and then returned the gun to them to finish the course of fire but it is totally outside the rules.

[stingerjg]

After shooting prone, I saw a competitor once get a dq for laying a gun down on the ground after getting the "slide down, hammer down, holster" command.  The gun was put down so the competitor could get to kneeling safely, then holster.  This was a few years ago and I would not be surprised if it were the impetus for the above rule change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As long as the gun is placed on the ground in a Safe manner and not more than an arms lenght away it is considered safe. Ill add the rule when i get home.

This came up at A3 last weekend, when a fellow competitor tripped and fell on a course of fire. He placed his firearm on the ground to get off of his face. After coming to his knees he picked up the gun and continued the course of fire. No penalty or DQ was issued for placing the gun on the ground.

[driver8M3]

The only time an RO would be able to take the gun is if the shooter can not continue and the RO ends the CoF.

so when does the course of fire end when a gun is jammed and cant be cleared. what if the RO drops the jammed gun?

[alma]

I don't think that there is a rule for that one in the rule book but Perry Wilson gave us the low down.

As an RO when someone has a gun problem and is trying to clear it you do not tell them "stop." If you stop them and there is no gun problem they will get a reshoot. Perry even said that some evil gamers would act like they had a gun problem, trying to provoke the RO into saying "stop" because they know it meant a reshoot for a bad stage.

Perry said that you ask the shooter if they can continue. If they say that they cannot continue then you confirm, "you cannot continue?"

If they confirm again then you can help clear the gun and get it holstered or bagged and then declare the range clear.

After confirming that the shooter cannot continue I would say that the course is over. If the RO drops the gun then I would suppose he, or another RO would pick it up an clear it as usual.

[alma]

This came up at A3 last weekend, when a fellow competitor tripped and fell on a course of fire. He placed his firearm on the ground to get off of his face. After coming to his knees he picked up the gun and continued the course of fire. No penalty or DQ was issued for placing the gun on the ground.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this would be ok as long as the gun was on safe when he let go of it. If it was not then it should still be a DQ because of 10.5.3.4, I think....

[stingerjg]

duh i should read the whole post b4 i add somthing that has already been posted

[folsoml]

Slightly related question, as it deals with dropped guns.

I know that dropping an unloaded gun outside of a course of fire is not a DQ, as long as YOU don't pick it, but instead get an RO to do it. But what if the gun doesn't actually hit the ground? I thought of this at our local match this past weekend when I bumped something with my holstered gun. It didn't fall out (luckily) but I thought, "What if you catch it before it hits the ground?" It seems like instinct to try to catch a $3500 piece of equipment (not my gun, mind you)rather than let it bounce in the dust. What should you do at that point? Set it on the ground and call an RO? Reholster it?

[BSeevers]

If I dropped a loaded gun I would feel so stupid and unsafe I would never be looking for loopholes(even though there are none), Put my gun away and paste the rest of the match. I lose a little respect for those that don't stay and paste. It is a measure of character.

I DQ'ed a shooter once for ADing between our feet(mine and his) he tried to say "I made him do it by distracting him" Boy did I lay into that one

[Sam38]

There is no "get out of jail free" card when it concerns a dropped gun during a course of fire.

Troy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

100% agreement. But I have a question. Start position is loaded gun on a table in a container with a lid on it. At beep, remove lid and start shooting. Competitor stands gun up inside container so, he thinks, that he can retrieve it faster.

Upon removing lid the container is jostled and the gun falls over inside container, but muzzle stays pointed down range.

DQ or not?

Would it make any difference if the gun was knocked over (muzzle still pointing down range) by the competitor's hand while he was trying to retreive it?

Regards,

Sam

[stingerjg]

100% agreement.  But I have a question.  Start position is loaded gun on a table in a container with a lid on it.  At beep,  remove lid and start shooting.  Competitor stands gun up inside container so, he thinks, that he can retrieve it faster. 

Upon removing lid the container is jostled and the gun falls over inside container,  but muzzle stays pointed down range.

DQ or not?

Would it make any difference if the gun was knocked over (muzzle still pointing down range) by the competitor's hand while he was trying to retreive it?

Regards,

Sam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A loaded gun is still a loaded gun. It dosent matter how it fell, only that it did. The only leeway you have is above rule 10.5.3 otherwise it would be a DQ.

If you were drawing a unloaded gun from a table/holster during a COF it would still be a DQ cause it was after the start signal.

[Vlad]

There is parallel thread in a different forum and I've asked this question there as well:

If a rival shooter picks up a rock and throws it at my head while Im shooting a course of fire, do I get DQed for droping the gun as my fingers let go of it while I'm passing out from the impact? I dont care what happens to the freedom fighter .. HUH .. I mean rock thrower. I care to know if you DQ the person who was knocked out.

[David Benzick]

There is parallel thread in a different forum and I've asked this question there as well:

If a rival shooter picks up a rock and throws it at my head while Im shooting a course of fire, do I get DQed for droping the gun as my fingers let go of it while I'm passing out from the impact? I dont care what happens to the freedom fighter .. HUH .. I mean rock thrower. I care to know if you DQ the person who was knocked out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You shoot with a tough group. Change clubs and you'll have more fun.

Thanks for all your replies. I didn't think there was an excuse that would prevent the DQ for dropping a gun during the COFbut some competitors will always try.

Later

Dave

[MarkS_A18138]

I know some of the guys on here were on my squad at 2004 area 4 and saw me hit the table as I was drawing my gun on stage 5 and drop my LOADED WEAPON. At that point everything slowed to a crawl and I saw my gun hit on the hammer pointing up at ME. (I LOVE MY GUNSMITH)THEN I SHIT MY SELF!!! I wanted to be DQ’d at that point because I needed a drink and I don’t drink. I also wanted to start smoking again! I could not imagine someone fighting that to get back in! I now could be hit by a truck and my gun would still be in my hand! I hope none of you have to go though this, if you do take the DQ and go get a drink.

There is no getting out of Jail card!!!!

There is also no Excuse For Dropped Gun!