Area 3 Championship

[motosapiens]

Just now, MikeBurgess said:

but I do a lot of stage design work and take it quite seriously and on top of that I have a weird obsession with rules, and kind of take pride in having made a RMI have to call the DNROI on 2 occasions to sort out things I found or did.

 

I'm with you there, and I have been fortunate enough to work with some ridiculously experienced CRO's nationals, which has helped me learn to anticipate and avoid many subtle stage design problems when I CRO a major..... but stuff still sneaks through.  It is very important to me that the stages are fair and equitable and within the rules. Not so worried about 'easy for sedentary old people who should be playing golf'.  

[MikeBurgess]

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Do the rules say a fault line must be an entirely separate object? that's what we are used to, but it seems to me a molded rubber object with a clear raised border between fault and not-fault is functionally the same.

 

Oddly enough there was another fault line discussion that actually had some basis. The discussion involved a wall that was open at the bottom 2' or so, but was deemed to go from the ground to the height constructed (so you couldn't shoot underneath it). no fault line underneath it, just bare grass, and there was some discussion over whether a foot that was estimated to poke out past the imaginary wall while shooting was worth a procedural or not. Very good and experienced RO too. Justice was eventually done. (no procedural), but I thought we were going to have to take our first stab at the arbitration system, which would have been an excellent learning experience. We had cash and I had gone to get paper and pen and mrs moto had already informed the MD of our intent, then I got back (after getting my gear so I could shoot the afternoon session) and the whole thing had been resolved properly. yay for less stress. Boo for less experience and learning.

the rules seem to say you can be penalized for standing on the ground or an object beyond the fault line,  and the definition of fault line from the rule book is 

 

Fault Line .........................A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area.

 

neither I think supports a penalty for touching beyond a painted line.

 

unfortunately 2.2.1.1 uses the word should when describing how they are to be constructed.

 

I know indoor clubs are told they may not use tape for fault lines because it is not a physical boundary

Edited August 8, 2017 by MikeBurgess

[MikeBurgess]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I'm with you there, and I have been fortunate enough to work with some ridiculously experienced CRO's nationals, which has helped me learn to anticipate and avoid many subtle stage design problems when I CRO a major..... but stuff still sneaks through.  It is very important to me that the stages are fair and equitable and within the rules. Not so worried about 'easy for sedentary old people who should be playing golf'.  

you should have come to our match I made sedentary old guys hang from a rope and go prone, I think we only had to help a couple of them get up afterwards :-)

 

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

the rules seem to say you can be penalized for standing on the ground or an object beyond the fault line,  and the definition of fault line from the rule book is 

 

Fault Line .........................A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area.

 

neither I think supports a penalty for touching beyond a painted line.

 

imho, the shape of the tire bead where it transitions from the part that touches the rim to the sidewall *is* a physical ground reference. it's not just painted, it's a very obvious physical delineation that you could feel with your foot, hand, elbow or whatever.

 

[BritinUSA]

2 hours ago, selecw said:

 

Twin Sisters club shirt which is kinda golden brown and black shorts. Thanks .. I think  ...

 

This is the only photo I person I could find from Julie's squad with a 'brownish' shirt..

 

 

[outerlimits]

45 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

you should have come to our match I made sedentary old guys hang from a rope and go prone, I think we only had to help a couple of them get up afterwards :-)

 

this thread cracks me up!  y'all should really branch out and shoot 3 gun!  and yes, i'm an old guy.  and yes, i started shooting this sport in 1984 so i've shot a few matches.  and yes, i have been MD & RM for levels 1 & 2, shot areas, nationals, etc.  just saying.  and thanks mike, i don't mind going prone with a pistol at all.

[BritinUSA]

My comments on the match, first the good stuff;

• It was very well organized, the squads moved smoothly (I shot on Friday).
• The RO's were polite, courteous and professional.
• Safety Areas between every berm.
• Most of the stages had multiple options.

My critical observations below;

• The rim of the tires on Stage 1 created two potential issues, the first being the lip of the rim, it was easy to snag a foot on that rim and take a nose dive.
• Secondly, the tires were slippery when wet… I know that flies in the face of logic but its true. If pushing off the top or side of the tire then there was the opportunity to stumble or slip.
• The issue with slippage occurred on several stages, most notably when transitioning from the ground to a wooden platform/steps. The simple addition of some grip tape to those areas would have eliminated this issue. An easy fix for next year.
• The stage with the crazy swinger; That swinger was random, therefore it did not present the same problem to every competitor.
• The noodle stage; This was very imaginative, but there I do wonder how the RO could keep visibility of the gun. There were several times when I shot this stage where I could not see my own gun due to the plethora of noodle. There were a few options on how to shoot the various targets, so it would have still been a great stage even without the noodles.
• The roof; It looked like a lot of fun but the thought of someone tumbling off it with a loaded gun makes me shudder. 
• The barbell stage, this was a great stage with lots of options, but I think the barbell may have been a little too unwieldy for smaller competitors.

I think that everything listed above can be easily fixed… and still leave a challenging match. 

[MikeBurgess]

 
imho, the shape of the tire bead where it transitions from the part that touches the rim to the sidewall *is* a physical ground reference. it's not just painted, it's a very obvious physical delineation that you could feel with your foot, hand, elbow or whatever.
 

My protest wold actually be pretty easy

I would likely be issued procedural under 10.2.1
Unless they can show I was touching the ground or an object wholly outside the fault line, and there is no way for a tire to simultaneously be the fault line and be wholly outside itself. Or they can show a rule or ruling that says something to nullify the wording in 10.2.1 then the procedural issues under 10.2.1 must be removed.

One argument could be that the paint itself is the fault line, that works except that the tire is still not wholly outside it so still it can be touched and five support.

Arguing that the transition of. The bead to sidewall defines the fault line is a stretch as it is still one object. By that logic we can say no touching the wall because it's easy tell where the wall starts and the fault line ends, I don't think we want to make sweeping changes like that to how the rules are currently interpreted for one stage?

On top of all this is what would have changed if the tires were the shooting area? Stand in it on it whatever you want (you know freestyle and supported by the rules without changing anything) ?


Seems to me like it would be the same stage without any question the rules support it.



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[motosapiens]

42 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

On top of all this is what would have changed if the tires were the shooting area? Stand in it on it whatever you want (you know freestyle and supported by the rules without changing anything) ?

 

 

this is a fair point, and if you were anticipating whiny range lawyers (not saying you are one), it might make sense to just make the whole tire the shooting area. wouldn't bother me.  Adapt and overcome. OTOH, as far as I can tell, no one who was actually there had the slightest issue with the tire fault lines, so maybe the whole discussion is just a distraction from actual issues.

[MikeBurgess]

 
this is a fair point, and if you were anticipating whiny range lawyers (not saying you are one), it might make sense to just make the whole tire the shooting area. wouldn't bother me.  Adapt and overcome. OTOH, as far as I can tell, no one who was actually there had the slightest issue with the tire fault lines, so maybe the whole discussion is just a distraction from actual issues.

But this is the internet and we are supossed to latch on to the wrong thing and beat it to death [emoji2]



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[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

But this is the internet and we are supossed to latch on to the wrong thing and beat it to death

 

doh! 

 

I am totally doing it wrong!

 

[selecw]

3 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

 

This is the only photo I person I could find from Julie's squad with a 'brownish' shirt..

 

 

 

[selecw]

That's the old crapper right there ! Thanks

[selecw]

3 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

My comments on the match, first the good stuff;

• It was very well organized, the squads moved smoothly (I shot on Friday).
• The RO's were polite, courteous and professional.
• Safety Areas between every berm.
• Most of the stages had multiple options.

My critical observations below;

• The rim of the tires on Stage 1 created two potential issues, the first being the lip of the rim, it was easy to snag a foot on that rim and take a nose dive.
• Secondly, the tires were slippery when wet… I know that flies in the face of logic but its true. If pushing off the top or side of the tire then there was the opportunity to stumble or slip.
• The issue with slippage occurred on several stages, most notably when transitioning from the ground to a wooden platform/steps. The simple addition of some grip tape to those areas would have eliminated this issue. An easy fix for next year.
• The stage with the crazy swinger; That swinger was random, therefore it did not present the same problem to every competitor.
• The noodle stage; This was very imaginative, but there I do wonder how the RO could keep visibility of the gun. There were several times when I shot this stage where I could not see my own gun due to the plethora of noodle. There were a few options on how to shoot the various targets, so it would have still been a great stage even without the noodles.
• The roof; It looked like a lot of fun but the thought of someone tumbling off it with a loaded gun makes me shudder. 
• The barbell stage, this was a great stage with lots of options, but I think the barbell may have been a little too unwieldy for smaller competitors.

I think that everything listed above can be easily fixed… and still leave a challenging match. 

 

This is a great summary. Spot on.

[CJDOUBLETAP]

I enjoy the props that make this match unique and unlike any other. If you cant step out of a 12" high tire or are scared to fall off a 5' tall roof with a loaded gun, maybe this match just isn't for you.

 

Area 3 has had gimmick props and raised wood platforms ever since it moved to Grand Island.  I'm not sure why people that don't like this stuff sign up for the match year after year, and bitch about it year after year..

 

A large portion of the DQ's were caused by pulling a rope to drop a hard cover wall. The rope was EXTREMELY hard to pull and caused most shooters that chose to pull it to fly backwards when the pin dropping the hard cover wall finally popped out. That is my only criticism of the stages.

 

The speed in which the activator rope was pulled on the random swinger thing seemed to have an effect on how it was presented on the first "pass." That was in the shooters control, so I'm cool with that.

[dsu96]

20 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

The tractor stage was a legal "Speed Shoot" stage. Check out rule 1.2.2.3 in the USPSA Handgun Rule book.

 

19 hours ago, Sarge said:

What he said.

 

Thanks for clarifying! 

[dsu96]

.

Edited August 9, 2017 by dsu96
double post

[Gooldylocks]

These are some of the most ridiculous stages I have ever seen. There was no hard cover, no no-shoots.. just ridiculous circus props. There is no way that they could justify procedurals for the tires. Safety smafety, lets make people run through a carwash of floaties that the ROs can't see into! Activator rope that doesn't present the same target to every shooter, or even the same amount of force to activate? Why not, it's all good here! 

 

This game is supposed to be a shooting challenge. Not a track meet, not an obstacle course. I appreciate that there were options. But it certainly wasn't because of challenges on the shot difficulty. 

[motosapiens]

On 8/11/2017 at 10:14 AM, Gooldylocks said:

These are some of the most ridiculous stages I have ever seen. There was no hard cover, no no-shoots.. just ridiculous circus props. There is no way that they could justify procedurals for the tires. Safety smafety, lets make people run through a carwash of floaties that the ROs can't see into! Activator rope that doesn't present the same target to every shooter, or even the same amount of force to activate? Why not, it's all good here! 

 

This game is supposed to be a shooting challenge. Not a track meet, not an obstacle course. I appreciate that there were options. But it certainly wasn't because of challenges on the shot difficulty. 

 

Don't be a debbie-downer. it was hella fun, and the same people won that normally win.  The activator rope was poorly executed however, but I have confidence that sort of thing will be addressed next year.

[Gooldylocks]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Don't be a debbie-downer. it was hella fun, and the same people won that normally win.  The activator rope was poorly executed however, but I have confidence that sort of thing will be addressed next year.

I'm not trying to be a debbie-downer. There honestly didn't appear to be any shooting challenges anywhere at the match. The only exception might be the shooting on the move while the slider was running, but honestly even that the targets were so close. This match was more about being a contortionist or being fleet of foot than about being a good shooter. And seeing as how I am one of the young people in this sport, I am both of those things so I would have a distinct advantage, yet I still think it is lame. That should tell you something. 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Gooldylocks said:

I'm not trying to be a debbie-downer. There honestly didn't appear to be any shooting challenges anywhere at the match. The only exception might be the shooting on the move while the slider was running, but honestly even that the targets were so close. This match was more about being a contortionist or being fleet of foot than about being a good shooter. And seeing as how I am one of the young people in this sport, I am both of those things so I would have a distinct advantage, yet I still think it is lame. That should tell you something. 

i saw lots of shooting challenges. Plenty of targets at 15-20 yards, a headshot surrounded by no-shoots, tons of mini-poppers at 15+ yards, some deceptive angled targets that looked easy but were easy to get deltas and mikes on,  and lots of shooting from low ports and imperfect positions.

 

Lots of risk-reward choices too. take the time to make the shots easier, or take more difficult shots (13 yard headshots, for example). Shoot from further back, or take the time to run forward.

 

Although not young, I am in pretty good shape, so something with lots of running and physical stuff *should* be an advantage for me, but guess what, I had about the same results as at other majors. The 4 SS shooters behind phil strader are all faster and in better shape than he is. Didn't seem to make much difference to him.

 

There were a couple pretty obvious problems that have already been discussed, but overall, I didn't think there was anything close to the level of circus dumbness of that stage with the stick in the hole that you worked at oregon last year. Maybe the pool noodles were close, lol.

[Steve RA]

Since you are young, fleet of foot and said there were not any shooting challenges, did you win the match ???

[MikeBurgess]

20 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Don't be a debbie-downer. it was hella fun, and the same people won that normally win.  The activator rope was poorly executed however, but I have confidence that sort of thing will be addressed next year.

 

I think within reasonable bounds the same people would win just about any match that was set up, because those guys practice and are very good at just about everything. I belive the real disparity's will appear in the middle classifications where having a balanced skill set is less likely, so having an unbalanced match will reward those that happen to lack the skills that were not tested.

 

 

[Gooldylocks]

2 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

Since you are young, fleet of foot and said there were not any shooting challenges, did you win the match ???

I didn't shoot the match, but if I had I still probably wouldn't have squeaked past Max and JJ. I am merely commenting from a stage design perspective. 

 

6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i saw lots of shooting challenges. Plenty of targets at 15-20 yards, a headshot surrounded by no-shoots, tons of mini-poppers at 15+ yards, some deceptive angled targets that looked easy but were easy to get deltas and mikes on,  and lots of shooting from low ports and imperfect positions.

 

Lots of risk-reward choices too. take the time to make the shots easier, or take more difficult shots (13 yard headshots, for example). Shoot from further back, or take the time to run forward.

 

Although not young, I am in pretty good shape, so something with lots of running and physical stuff *should* be an advantage for me, but guess what, I had about the same results as at other majors. The 4 SS shooters behind phil strader are all faster and in better shape than he is. Didn't seem to make much difference to him.

 

There were a couple pretty obvious problems that have already been discussed, but overall, I didn't think there was anything close to the level of circus dumbness of that stage with the stick in the hole that you worked at oregon last year. Maybe the pool noodles were close, lol.

The abundant 15-20 yard open targets are still not much of a challenge in my mind. I must have missed the headshot with no-shoots, and most of the mini poppers I saw certainly didn't look to be 15 yards. If they were there, then great that is awesome. 

 

I saw the headshot/move closer for easier shot one as well, but to me that still isn't a shooting challenge that people are forced to do (how many of the gen pop ran up and hosed open paper at 5 yards? I'm guessing most). 

 

The flag in the hole stage last year was the most horrific thing I have yet to see at a match. From the match management, safety, and competitive equity standpoints. 

 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Gooldylocks said:

The flag in the hole stage last year was the most horrific thing I have yet to see at a match. From the match management, safety, and competitive equity standpoints. 

 

 

I knew we could find common ground. Group hugs for everyone!