How many rounds between cleanings

[V2plus25]

So call it laziness or whatever, but I've shot 2 matches and 1 range trip without cleaning the gun.  All I've done is add oil   Well I decided to continue without cleaning anything before the match today, and after about the 15th double strike thought that I should have taken a little time to clean the gun beforehand.

 

So my question is: how many rounds do you normally run through your Tanfo before at least some minimal cleaning (rails, breechface, etc)?

 

Mine is a LimPro shooting .40 major with a PD 14lb hammer spring, titan/bolo combo, PD firing pin and spring.  Have yet to polish the upper (especially the firing pin channel) and the hammer/sear area.  Primer height is maddeningly inconsistent from flush to below flush, but I guess that is to be expected when loading range brass with a 550b.

 

I LOVE shooting the Tanfo but am finding out that it's just a bit more picky than the Glock with ammo.

Edited February 4, 2017 by V2plus25

[MemphisMechanic]

Mine is over 1k without a cleaning. Side note: Prima V leaves your gun INSANELY clean, so that's helpful. But even with nasty powders like Ramshot Comp, all of my guns have been cleaned every 1500-3000 so.

 

They do get re-oiled before each match, but not cleaned.

Edited February 4, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[JusticeOfToren]

I run N320 and normally clean the gun every 1000 rounds or so. 

[IronArcher]

Running factory ammo, I'm good for about 1000 between cleanings.
Usually, I can tell when racking the slide. If it's slow to go into battery, it's time to clean.
That said, in a pinch, a little fresh oil on the rails will get me through the day.
Betting I could go 10,000 as long as I keep oiling the slide.


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[PatriotDefense]

We've noticed for the first 3-5K rounds through a Tanfo it's best to clean every 600-800rnds. After that you can really stretch out your detail cleanings to 2-3K rounds through the gun..... if you choose.

[Dr Mitch]

2-3k between cleanings.

[V2plus25]

Well it looks like in addition to finishing up the polishing job, I'd better get to running more rounds through it.  

 

What do you think about the inconsistent primer seating depth I'm getting from the Dillon 550b?  I'd say 2/3's of them are below flush with the other 1/3 being fairly flush with the case head.  Would that be the primary cause of having to double-strike the round in order to get it to fire, or am I looking at stacking tolerances on those rounds (a combo of flush primer + unpolished firing pin hole/hammer hole/etc. + a semi-dirty gun)?

 

Guess I'll have my answer once I finish polishing everything and clean it.  Now where'd I put that bourbon and the dremel?

 

Good to know once I get it all figured out that I can run 1000+ rounds through it without having to detail clean it.

Edited February 5, 2017 by V2plus25

[johnbu]

3/4 of problems are primer depth.

Definitely polish the FP channel!

[LeviSS]

2 hours ago, V2plus25 said:

Well it looks like in addition to finishing up the polishing job, I'd better get to running more rounds through it.  

 

What do you think about the inconsistent primer seating depth I'm getting from the Dillon 550b?  I'd say 2/3's of them are below flush with the other 1/3 being fairly flush with the case head.  Would that be the primary cause of having to double-strike the round in order to get it to fire, or am I looking at stacking tolerances on those rounds (a combo of flush primer + unpolished firing pin hole/hammer hole/etc. + a semi-dirty gun)?

 

Guess I'll have my answer once I finish polishing everything and clean it.  Now where'd I put that bourbon and the dremel?

 

Good to know once I get it all figured out that I can run 1000+ rounds through it without having to detail clean it.

 

I had that problem when I first got my Dillon.  I did everything I could think of to seat the primers deeper.  My CZ had been flawless before, so I gave up and called Dillon.  After all the troubleshooting, they didn't know what was wrong either but said it might be the primer seater was out of spec.  They sent me a new one for free.  Since then it's been perfect.

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, V2plus25 said:

Well it looks like in addition to finishing up  I'd say 2/3's of them are below flush with the other 1/3 being fairly flush with the case head.

 

Would that be the primary cause of having to double-strike the round in order to get it to fire, or am I looking at stacking tolerances on those rounds?

 

Not certain, but highly likely:

 

Your first strike is pressing the primer fully into the pocket of the case, and then strike #2 is setting it off like it's supposed to.

 

Your options are to work out some solution to meticulously seat your primers deeper: switching presses or priming by hand, etc.

 

Or to do like I do, and run a crapload of hammer spring. The Wolff 14 pound wasn't quite enough for me: I found 100% reliability with "flush is good" CCI primers when I swapped to an EGD Medium hammer spring.

 

It'll bump your trigger weight up in double action, but it's quite shootable. And the gun will eat anything a Glock will eat.

[CZinSC]

Flush primers should still go off.  The only other thing i can think of is, are you oiling the firing pin channel?  Or are you oiling the FPB ( if it has one, can't recall if the LP has a FPB )?  If you're oiling the FP channel, stop.  That is most definitely the issue.  If you're oiling the FPB, you need to go easy, because the oil could be seeping into the FP channel.  Any oil in the FP channel will cause the FP to drag and cause light strikes.

If this was basic info and you're thinking "no sh*t Sherlock", i apologize.  Just trying to think outside the box in case its not the primers.

[LegionShooter]

I have a 550b and it seats primers pretty uniformly.  The only time I had issues was when I let the machine get too dirty and it sort of "gummed up" the works.  Thoroughly cleaned and lubed everything and it was back to business as usual.  Anything flush should light off and, as someone else mentioned, don't put a bunch of oil in the firing pin channel.  

 

Now consistent powder throws on the other hand...

[MemphisMechanic]

@CZinSC and @LegionShooter what experiences have led you to state that "anything flush should go off" in a Tanfoglio with harder primers (CCI, S&B,  Wolf) and a 13 or 14 pound spring?

 

Because when that combination resulted in 25% light strikes for me, posting here led to a rapid eduction that flush is no where near fully seated, and "welcome to the world of DA guns with light hammer springs."

 

If you want a gun to light CCI primers with a 12, 13 or even 14 pound PD spring with bolo & Titan, the primers need to be .006"-.008" below flush. Absolutely sunk down into the primer pocket. Flush is still a few thousandths high - but the striker-fired or single-action guns we were shooting had never cared before.

 

With a Tanfoglio you either need to seat your primers deep every single time, or give up on hammer springs that are lighter, and run something that hits harder.

Edited February 5, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[johnbu]

 

You forgot one CRITICAL phrase;

 

"With factory springs"

 

 

Flush will pop every time "with factory springs".  But, we don't want a 12# DA, so we don't run factory springs, we run much weaker springs.

 

The Patriot Defense are optimized to not "stack" and not "coil bind" on compression. But, they require the mechanisms of the gun to also be optimized (de-burr and polished) so friction is minimized.

 

They are the best springs available to reduce and linearize  (no stacking, glitching, rubbing, etc etc) trigger pull force.  But....the gun must be also prepped to MORE FULLY UTILIZE lower hammer potential energy.

 

How?

 

Clearance the hammer channel, polish it. Polish the sides of the hammer, the pivot holes (all 3), the pivot pins. Then the firing pin keeper hole, the firing pin, firinf pin block, and the uber rough channels they are in.

 

The ammo must also have the primers fully seated. This is more than just happy talk, it's VITAL with range pick brass. Some are stretched by "major" pf and will allow the primer to move. I can't  visually  determine which brass hole is going to F me on a stage... can you? (Seriously, they look the same)

 

Then some primers are manufactured less expensively (outer diameter, compound sensitivity, quantity of compound, anvil design, etc etc) and they need more of a whack. Some won't even go pop 100% with a 22# hammer spring.  (i used one to use crappy eastern block primers in a SA only Match and still had 3% fail to fire!)

28 minutes ago, LegionShooter said:

I have a 550b and it seats primers pretty uniformly.  The only time I had issues was when I let the machine get too dirty and it sort of "gummed up" the works.  Thoroughly cleaned and lubed everything and it was back to business as usual.  Anything flush should light off and, as someone else mentioned, don't put a bunch of oil in the firing pin channel.  

 

Now consistent powder throws on the other hand...

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by johnbu

[CZinSC]

30 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@CZinSC and @LegionShooter what experiences have led you to state that "anything flush should go off" in a Tanfoglio with harder primers (CCI, S&B,  Wolf) and a 13 or 14 pound spring?

 

Because when that combination resulted in 25% light strikes for me, posting here led to a rapid eduction that flush is no where near fully seated, and "welcome to the world of DA guns with light hammer springs."

 

If you want a gun to light CCI primers with a 12, 13 or even 14 pound PD spring with bolo & Titan, the primers need to be .006"-.008" below flush. Absolutely sunk down into the primer pocket. Flush is still a few thousandths high - but the striker-fired or single-action guns we were shooting had never cared before.

 

With a Tanfoglio you either need to seat your primers deep every single time, or give up on hammer springs that are lighter, and run something that hits harder.

First off, I never said "anything flush will go off", I said "Flush primers should still go off".  Flush is not ideal, and i certainly would not bring them to a Major match, but again, they should still go off.

Second, OP never mentioned CCI, S&B, Wolf primers.  Those are definitely hard primers.  If that's what he is using, then yes, flush may not be ideal.  I use Winchester, and don't have issues with flush.

 

As far as my experiences, I've shot 35,000 rounds through an SP01 ( i mention it because the internals are very similar to the Tanfo ).  I shot 7000 rounds through a Stock 2 before i sold it.   I'm currently up to approximately 9000 rounds on my Tanfo Limited 40.  Granted the Limited is different, as it is SA compared to DA.  Through all of these rounds, i've not had issues with Flush primers, using Winchester primers.  However, I have had on occasion light strike issues, which i found out after pulling the gun apart, were attributed to too much oil in the FP channel.  I didn't intend to oil the FP channel, but it got in there due to my carelessness.  I made sure i remedied that.  

 

I was merely passing that info along.

 

Also, i've never done to my guns what everyone seems to be doing these days.  Shooters have always chased the "perfect trigger", but lately it seems ridiculous.  Part of the fun of owning guns is pulling them apart and fiddling with them, so I get it.  However, when it starts to get in the way of match performance, it's time to start thinking "is it worth it"?  Is a 5.5# DA pull going to allow you to hit a 20yd A zone when the 6# pull wont?  If it is, you might have other issues.

 

For the record, my SP01 was DA/SA 6#/2.25#, my Stock 2 was 5.5#/2#, and i can't recall what my Limited is ( i think 2.75# ).  Nothing special went into these guns other than polishing and lighter springs ( not light, but lighter than factory ).  ( i take that back, the Limited has all Henning parts in it, but no "special" parts from a 3rd party OEM ).

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

Sounds like we are in perfect agreement, then.

 

To paraphrase my first post, you either need to seat softer primers with obsessive attention and enjoy chasing a flyweight trigger...

...Or run an additional pound or two of pull weight, and enjoy the ability to feed your gun any primer that's flush and have it run 100%.

 

I chose path #2, and I'm very happy just  practicing with it set up the way it is.

But some guys enjoy the tuning process to whittle their DA down to 4.5-5 pounds and they find satisfaction in crafting precision ammo that works with that weapon. Men have been inclined toward tinkering with things like musclecar engines and guns since the dawn of time, and they're simply carrying on the tradition of finding satisfaction in that.

 

We do, however, need to have a solid understanding of which path we are on.  And to make sure that the gun's springs and our ammo are matched to the mission we have for it.

Edited February 5, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[IronArcher]

Pardon the ignorant question:
With all this talk about flush/below flush primer seating...
Does this ONLY concern reloads?
Would you try to seat factory ammo deeper?


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[Steve RA]

No, but you need to consider that most people on here do reload - not shoot factory ammo.

Plus, factory ammo is in cases that are virgin and each brand is loaded into it's own cases.  Pick up brass has been through a lot of different stresses than virgin brass, plus each brand of brass varies from the next one in probably several ways.

[LegionShooter]

3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@CZinSC and @LegionShooter what experiences have led you to state that "anything flush should go off" in a Tanfoglio with harder primers (CCI, S&B,  Wolf) and a 13 or 14 pound spring?

 

Because when that combination resulted in 25% light strikes for me, posting here led to a rapid eduction that flush is no where near fully seated, and "welcome to the world of DA guns with light hammer springs."

 

If you want a gun to light CCI primers with a 12, 13 or even 14 pound PD spring with bolo & Titan, the primers need to be .006"-.008" below flush. Absolutely sunk down into the primer pocket. Flush is still a few thousandths high - but the striker-fired or single-action guns we were shooting had never cared before.

 

With a Tanfoglio you either need to seat your primers deep every single time, or give up on hammer springs that are lighter, and run something that hits harder.

 

I wasn't basing my statement off a Tanfo since I'm a rookie on this platform.  I was basing it off Glock and 2011 platforms that I've loaded for, and for factory stock guns.  Flush primers have never been an issue for any of those, for me anyway.  So in fairness, once the modifications that everyone talks about are in place, perhaps the statement doesn't always apply.  

[MemphisMechanic]

44 minutes ago, LegionShooter said:

 

I wasn't basing my statement off a Tanfo since I'm a rookie on this platform.  I was basing it off Glock and 2011 platforms that I've loaded for, and for factory stock guns.  Flush primers have never been an issue for any of those, for me anyway.  So in fairness, once the modifications that everyone talks about are in place, perhaps the statement doesn't always apply.  

Ahh! This makes sense now.

 

Yes, loading for striker guns and single action hammer guns is an entirely different ballgame from where you and I came from. With Glocks and M&Ps and the like?  Flush primers are 100% good to go at Nationals.

 

CZ, Tanfos, and other double-action guns don't hit the primer nearly as hard in DA as they do in SA. The hammer only travels about 80% as far to the rear as it does for a single action shot.

 

Flush isn't good enough anymore. Not if your goal is the best possible trigger. Flyweight DA pull weights come mostly from the lightest possible hammer spring... and thus the weakest strike on the primer that you can get away with.

 

@johnbu in the Tanfo group here had gotten the double action pull down around 4 pounds even. That required a Federal primer to be seated so deeply that it's visibly dimpled by the seating punch in your press:

http://www.tkcustom.com/content/AJ.asp

(That gun had a one pound SA trigger too. Scary light!)

 

You can also run a 16ish pound EGD Medium spring like I do, and feed the gun CCI's at "flush or better" depths. Trigger weights are 7lbs even, and 3.1lbs with all of the optimum triggerwidgets installed.

 

If I were to switch from the Dillon 650 to a 1050 where I could swage my primer pockets and set primer depths to .006" below flush consistently, I could run a PD 14 pound spring and still have a perfectly reliable gun on CCI primers. Trigger weights for my gun were 5.5lbs and 2.75lbs with that setup.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[V2plus25]

MemphisMechanic and everyone else, thanks for your input.  Until I upgrade to a Dillon 1050, I'll probably have to chose path #2 (weight the crap out of the hammer spring).  Just ordered some heavy ones from Wolff in fact.

 

Oh and I should have mentioned I'm lighting off WSP primers.  They're not as soft as Federals but a whole lot easier to find around here.

 

So yeah I'll finish polishing the FP hole and the other upper parts, but until I can verify that I can run 300 rounds trouble free in SA with the PD 14# hammer spring I'm just going to shoot matches with a heavier spring.  Besides both in Limited and ESP I shoot SA only anyways unless a double-strike is needed to light a round off.  I don't try to get any oil in the FP hole, but when I take it apart later today I'll check to make sure some hasn't made it's way in there and is slowing the PD firing pin down.

[LegionShooter]

I did load dev with a stock gun yesterday morning and have a load that I, and the gun, like.  When I got home my springs were in the mailbox so I tore it down, cleaned it up, and put in new springs.  Between the polish I did earlier this week and the springs I put in last night it's a world of difference from where it was.  Now I get to go back out with a batch of my ammo and make sure it fires off without issue.  Primers are WSP seated "a tad" below flush.  Springs are a PD 14lb hammer, PD trigger return, PD sear spring, Wolff 10lb recoil (and the FP spring that came with it).

[mjmagee67]

I went over 6 months shooting 200 to 400 rounds a week without cleaning. The only reason I cleaned my main gun is because I shot a Level II match. The gun never missed a beat. My load is N320 under 135 or 147gr coated bullets. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by mjmagee67

[V2plus25]

2 hours ago, mjmagee67 said:

I went over 6 months shooting 200 to 400 rounds a week without cleaning. The only reason I cleaned my main gun is because I shot a Level II match. The gun never missed a beat. My load is N320 under 135 or 147gr coated bullets. 

 

That's good to know.  For now I'm running the PD 15.5 hammer spring and after another round of polishing everything will drop down to the 14 one for this match season I think.  Even the PD 15.5 feels way better than the stock one.

[mjmagee67]

4 minutes ago, V2plus25 said:

 

That's good to know.  For now I'm running the PD 15.5 hammer spring and after another round of polishing everything will drop down to the 14 one for this match season I think.  Even the PD 15.5 feels way better than the stock one.

I'm using a 10lbs PD hammer spring and I have only gotten 1 failure to fire with Winchester primers durring practice after several 1000s of rounds. I do use Federal primers in matches though.