johnbu Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Hammers, Discos and Pins, Oh my! So, I wondered just what the quantifiable effect changing hammers, interruptors and firing pins would have on ignition reliability. Rather than wasting bucks (that I don’t have) on ammo, the “pencil launch” test was used to see the changes. The trigger pull force in DA and SA were measured with the changes in the hammers using the Lyman digital gauge and a ten pull average is reported. In the study a Stock 2 pistol is used with a through detailed polish of all components, pins and holes. The CZ sear spring, CZ reduced power trigger return spring and a EG “light” firing pin return spring with coils cut leaving 5 after the tip of the Xtreme firing pin and the Patriot Defense 10 hammer spring. At the time this was done the PD firing pin return spring was not yet available. The gun and all components were freshly detail cleaned and lubricated to best practices in my normal fashion and all tests were run consecutively with swapped parts being lubricated as normal. There were 3 hammers used, the factory “heart shaped”, the Xtreme Titan and an old style solid hammer . Three interruptors (aka disco) were used, the old “2 wing”, the factory one (which is the Xtreme part) and the new BOLO. The BOLO was only tested once at the end in the final run. Two firing pins were used, the Xtreme and the Henning Generation 5. Both pins were polished mirror bright. The pencil test was performed and an average height reached by the tip was marked on the masking tape applied to the cabinet behind the work bench. The beaver tail was placed in a 5/16 nut to ensure the hammer was not touching the bench. After the completion of all runs, the LOWEST reading was then marked as ZERO INCHES and all readings are the distance ABOVE THAT MINIMUM. This format was chosen to most easily determine the actual DIFFERENCE in launch height between parts. For those that love absolute numbers, the ZERO MARK distance is 17.0 inches above the barrel or 15" above the starting position of the pencil tip while in the barrel. Test #1 2 wing disco Solid hammer EG firing pin DA – 4” SA – 4” DA 4# 4 oz, SA 2# 2oz Test #2 2 wing disco Solid hammer Henning G5 DA – 3/4” SA 1 1/2” Test #3 Xtreme 1 wing disco Solid Hammer Henning G5 DA – 3/4” SA – 3 1/2” DA 4# 5.8oz SA 1# 8.6oz Test#4 Xtreme 1 wing disco Solid Hammer EG Firing Pin DA – 3 3/4” SA – 5 1/2” Test #5 Xtreme 1 wing disco Heart Shaped Hammer EG Xtreme Firing Pin DA –1 3/4” SA – 3 1/2” Test #6 Xtreme 1 wing disco Heart Shaped Hammer Henning G5 Firing Pin DA – 0” SA – 3” Test #7 Xtreme 1 wing disco Titan Hammer Henning G5 Firing Pin DA – 0” SA – 1 1/2” DA – 4# 4.30z SA 1# 7oz Test #8 Xtreme 1 wing disco Titan Hammer EG Xtreme Firing Pin DA – 6” SA – 6 1/2” Test #9 BOLO disco Titan Hammer EG Xtreme Firing Pin DA – 3” SA 6 3/4” DA 3# 14 oz SA 1# 1 oz The factory heart shaped hammer DA averaged 7/8”, the solid hammer averaged 2 1/3” and the Titan hammer averaged 3” across all tests. This indicates that heavy hammers launch the pencil higher and moving the weight up on the hammer (as in the Titan) launches the highest. The Titan was on average across all tests 2 1/8” higher than the factory heart shaped hammer. The trigger pull force was pretty constant in DA, but the hammer hook height / shape reduced the SA pull force considerably and reduced the trigger motion needed to fire with the Titan. The Henning G5 firing pin in DA launched an average of 1/2” (which is the pencil point reaching 17 1/2” above the barrel). The Xtreme firing pin launched an average of 3 3/4” or 3 1/4” higher. The combination of the Titan Hammer and Xtreme firing pin were the clear “winner” in pencil launch height going 6” higher than the minimum. The minimum was the heart shaped hammer with Henning G5 firing pin. The Henning G5 pin weighs 72 grains and the Xtreme weighs 99.8 grains. Traditional thinking is a lighter pin will result in shorter lock times and thus greater accuracy. This may be true here, but to get that shorter lock time a stronger hammer spring is needed to give equivalent pencil launch heights. My opinion is the Henning pin is not compatible with the very lightest hammer springs. And I don't believe there were any spring options as light as the PD10 when that pin was created, so it's not surprising. This indicates that when using the lightest hammer spring available, the heavier Xtreme firing pin and the heavier Titan hammer transfers more energy to the pencil, launching it higher. When the ONLY change was the firing pin from G5 to Xtreme (using Xtreme disco and Titan hammer), the launch height was a full 6” higher in DA and 5” in SA. Interestingly the BOLO with the “optimum” configuration loses a bit (3") in DA. This is undoubtedly due to it releasing the hammer slightly sooner as a result of the intentionally mismatched pin/hole. But… that mismatch is what allows the near zero reset and reduces the DA pull force by approximately 6 oz. There is no free lunch in engineering as they say. Everything is a trade off. Of note is the reduction in SA trigger force with the BOLO. Unexpected, to say the least. It probably shows that the Xtreme disco must be rubbing somewhere, increasing the force slightly. Since I don't run that disco, it wasn't pursued. Even though it's not understood i think it was a true reading as those are consistent with historical SA pulls with that set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 heart shaped and old solid hammer used and a closer view of the hooks of all three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotDefense Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Great information John, good to see others performing some "3rd party" testing on the parts and different configurations available to the Tanfo line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryridesmotox Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Love the henning tests... 0 inches. No wonder I was having lights strikes on everything with the Henning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 As someone who is going to begin building their Tango next month and who likes running CCI primers... thank you! This is a huge help. I'd been wondering if the Titan was really worth the $112. It definitely looks like it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticeOfToren Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Love the wealth of information on the forum. Thanks for sharing! The hammer hook difference is very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 You're welcome! I was just wondering one day how this stuff worked and played together. Then figured others might be interested. Sorry if it looks too formal, my inner engineer came back out. lol. What i don't know is how all the parts work firing real ammo. I just dont have enough $ to get 4-5 thousand projectiles and 500 primers of each brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElMateo487 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 As someone who is going to begin building their Tango next month and who likes running CCI primers... thank you! This is a huge help. I'd been wondering if the Titan was really worth the $112. It definitely looks like it is.Advice from a noob but... I just built my first Tanfo. One thing I wish I had done, was I wish I had fingered the gun for around a week before making any changes. Then each time I made a change, I would finger it again for a while. I wish I could quantify what changes I had made and what they actually did to the gun. Go slow, and benefit from not getting into a situation where you don't really know where your gun is in relation to where it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 The Tanfo Limited Pro I just got done with is setup with parts from your #9. Popping Win primers no problem. Just picked up a brick of CCI to test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 With a PD10 hammer spring? Awesome! could you measure the depth of the primers? I've been gathering info on winchester spp and want to see what depth they like the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I've got a 12lb PD Hammer Spring in.. I'll measure this evening and get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 so now I need an Xtreme pin. Damnit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElMateo487 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 so now I need an Xtreme pin. Damnit.The stock pin is almost identical if you have a newer gun. Same weight and length. The only difference is that the hammer impact surface is flat on the stock pin, and rounded on the xtreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Indeed you are correct. I just found an Xtreme one in my parts bag and compared it to a stock gun I have here and you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I'd really like to see the difference between the Titan hammer and the Xtreme Delta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunez Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 7 hours ago, ElMateo487 said: Advice from a noob but... I just built my first Tanfo. One thing I wish I had done, was I wish I had fingered the gun for around a week before making any changes. Then each time I made a change, I would finger it again for a while. I wish I could quantify what changes I had made and what they actually did to the gun. Go slow, and benefit from not getting into a situation where you don't really know where your gun is in relation to where it was. So do I! I kind of have an itch to get another Stock II and do this and really figure out what makes the most difference, how, whats not needed etc...But...I'm waiting on the Shadow 2 and see if I like it before committing to another Stock II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunez Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Great job John! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryridesmotox Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 What makes the most difference is starting with a good polish job. After you refine the rest of the trigger, if the polishing of the internals is not great, you will feel a bit of grit in the trigger. I polished mine twice because I didn't do a good enough job the first time. After that, any change in the pistol seems to be magnified by the polish work. That's my .02 anyways. After the polish job, BOLO, sear, hammer, and springs. Not much else to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 7 hours ago, johnbu said: With a PD10 hammer spring? Awesome! could you measure the depth of the primers? I've been gathering info on winchester spp and want to see what depth they like the most. I'm averaging .006" below flush. They range between .005"-.008". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, nunez said: So do I! I kind of have an itch to get another Stock II and do this and really figure out what makes the most difference, how, whats not needed etc...But...I'm waiting on the Shadow 2 and see if I like it before committing to another Stock II. In a hair over a month I'll be cracking open my Stock 3 and beginning to swap parts and overhaul. If anyone is inclined to send me a part or two to test and then ship back to them, we might be able to expound on this list. Titan, BOLO, PD springs all around, and 1pc sear are the current items on the list. Edited October 14, 2016 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 43 minutes ago, aandabooks said: I'm averaging .006" below flush. They range between .005"-.008". Hooks and geometry of pivot points, etc are super close if not identical. The Titan moved weight up higher inline with the pin. I would expect performance to slightly favor the titan, it is the "improved" hammer over the delta after all. ElMateo is correct on the firing pins. there is really no meaningful difference between what is in a stock 2 and the Xtreme. 4 hours ago, waktasz said: I'd really like to see the difference between the Titan hammer and the Xtreme Delta. Thanks! That's slightly lower than I tried setting them. The wolf and federal primers like 0.003" deep. 43 minutes ago, aandabooks said: I'm averaging .006" below flush. They range between .005"-.008". T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nydde Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Great job! Damn IPSC prod rules, no polish for me :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 3 hours ago, nydde said: Great job! Damn IPSC prod rules, no polish for me :\ Or PD springs... or BOLO... Just tell the match staff that you lube your gun with Blue Magic or Flitz, and you do a lot of dryfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElMateo487 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Or PD springs... or BOLO... Just tell the match staff that you lube your gun with Blue Magic or Flitz, and you do a lot of dryfire.I left my parts in the sun on accident and the metal got bleached! I promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 So are we saying a stock pin, after rounding the tip (just the tip) is roughly the same thing as an Xtreme pin?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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