Dillon 650 and EGW 9mm die feeding issues

[jrn1975]

I appreciate everyone's input as I am sure Lawdog does as well. I will check each position of the shell plate tonight to see how each of them align.

The frustrating part is that Dillion basically suggest using a wider mouth die to address the miss-alignment issues of the press.

 

[mikeinctown]

38 minutes ago, jrn1975 said:

I appreciate everyone's input as I am sure Lawdog does as well. I will check each position of the shell plate tonight to see how each of them align.

The frustrating part is that Dillion basically suggest using a wider mouth die to address the miss-alignment issues of the press.

 

The difference between the undersize die and a regular die is like .002. The only slight difference is that the U die doesn't have as much of a radius. However, based on those photos, no radius in the world is going to align it from that far off center. I'm betting that numbering each station on the shellplate will help as you may see one or two that are completely off and all the rest perfect.

[jrn1975]

Well every position of the shellplate looks the same as the picture..  maybe the platform is out of alignment

[jrn1975]

Well just got off the phone with dillon and got no where once again.  Explained the issue, and was told how to adjust the press.  I explained that I have done all of that however the case doesn't seem to align with station 1 and the alignment tool, no matter the adjustments made, would not align in the hole without hitting the side.  

I attempted to send him the picture above but he never got it.

By the end, I was basically told I was a newb who didn't know what I was doing.  Sad part is this press was purchased as a 9mm press and has not run right since day one.

Back to square one.. maybe I should just return it and buy something that works.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, jrn1975 said:

Well just got off the phone with dillon and got no where once again.  Explained the issue, and was told how to adjust the press.  I explained that I have done all of that however the case doesn't seem to align with station 1 and the alignment tool, no matter the adjustments made, would not align in the hole without hitting the side.  

I attempted to send him the picture above but he never got it.

By the end, I was basically told I was a newb who didn't know what I was doing.  Sad part is this press was purchased as a 9mm press and has not run right since day one.

Back to square one.. maybe I should just return it and buy something that works.

Where do you live? Chances are somebody on here is  lose enough to help you out. I have helped several guys get started on 650's

[LawDog64]

I switched to the RCBS die I had and it seemed to run okay but I only got a short run done tonight after I got off work.  But I had three times the rounds fail to case gauge.  Now the primer feeding system is hanging up unless I push down on the advancing arm to make sure the wheel turns.  I did try and tighten the shell plate a bit to insure it was not the issue.  I also orded my press as a 9mm and haven't tried running anything but 9 mm on it.

Edited October 13, 2016 by LawDog64

[MemphisMechanic]

I've seen references to someone's case lube or bit of grease on the part that pushes the case into the shellplate being tacky. Just enough stiction to tug the case back out of the shellplate a couple of thousandths and cause misalignment issues.

I run a Dillon die in station 1 with the mouth ground down about halfway, so that it still has double the funnel of the U-die, but sizes further down than the super-flared unmodified Dillon.

I've always had the occasional jam at station one from a misaligned case - perhaps once every 100 rounds or so. I've always simply tapped the case over and kept going.

[mikeinctown]

40 minutes ago, LawDog64 said:

I switched to the RCBS die I had and it seemed to run okay but I only got a short run done tonight after I got off work.  But I had three times the rounds fail to case gauge.  Now the primer feeding system is hanging up unless I push down on the advancing arm to make sure the wheel turns.  I did try and tighten the shell plate a bit to insure it was not the issue.  I also orded my press as a 9mm and haven't tried running anything but 9 mm on it.

That is confusing to me about the primers. The lever rides up on the ramp and it advances. Not sure how or why you would need to push down on the arm unless something isn't fastened correctly. My arm is tight and has zero play. There is a spring washer just above the arm that keeps it pushed down. Also not sure how changing the decapping die makes more case gauge failures. Shouldn't the FCD be doing a final sizing of the case for you? Maybe it is because I am used to .45 and 9mm is completely different?

 

BTW, I looked at my 650 tonight and when the case is inserted into station 1 and the ram goes it, it looks off center though not as bad as in the pic above. However the case does not move when it slides into the die and hits nothing. So I'm thinking that the view is a sort of illusion as if I change my point of view, the pin looks more on center. My station 1 has a Dillon die and not a U die.

[LawDog64]

5 minutes ago, mikeinctown said:

That is confusing to me about the primers. The lever rides up on the ramp and it advances. Not sure how or why you would need to push down on the arm unless something isn't fastened correctly. My arm is tight and has zero play. There is a spring washer just above the arm that keeps it pushed down. Also not sure how changing the decapping die makes more case gauge failures. Shouldn't the FCD be doing a final sizing of the case for you? Maybe it is because I am used to .45 and 9mm is completely different?

 

BTW, I looked at my 650 tonight and when the case is inserted into station 1 and the ram goes it, it looks off center though not as bad as in the pic above. However the case does not move when it slides into the die and hits nothing. So I'm thinking that the view is a sort of illusion as if I change my point of view, the pin looks more on center. My station 1 has a Dillon die and not a U die.

If you watch your primers advance the arm has a curve on the bottom which allows it to come out of the holes and move to the next one to advance the primers.  In my case the arm won't lock into the next hole to align the next primer

[mikeinctown]

5 minutes ago, LawDog64 said:

If you watch your primers advance the arm has a curve on the bottom which allows it to come out of the holes and move to the next one to advance the primers.  In my case the arm won't lock into the next hole to align the next primer

I see that part, but the spring washer holds it down with enough force that it does not pop out. Either that little tab got bent, the washer is messed up, or something is causing the disk to stick, which puts more stress on that arm. (just a guess by observing how mine operates)

Edited October 13, 2016 by mikeinctown

[jrn1975]

6 minutes ago, LawDog64 said:

If you watch your primers advance the arm has a curve on the bottom which allows it to come out of the holes and move to the next one to advance the primers.  In my case the arm won't lock into the next hole to align the next primer

Check the spring in the primer advance.  I had this issue and found a "kink" formed in the spring not allowing it fully advance

[Phlier]

Total shot in the dark, but could it be that the die hole in the tool head was mis-drilled for station one? Any chance you have another tool head you could pop your dies in and try out?

Really surprised that the Dillon support guys weren't more helpful.

Hopefully, one of the support guys that cruise this forum will come across this thread, take a look at the pictures, and offer some insight.

Some of that outstanding customer support that Dillon is known for is sorely needed about now...

[jrn1975]

I think that is our alignment issue mikeinc.  When I have a case fully inserted into the shellplate, it always hits the edge of die before entering.  It's better with the Dillon die but I still get the occasional hang up where I physically have to guide the case in. 

Not ideal if one is thinking of automating the press.

Maybe I will just go buy a new shellplate to rule that out.

Edited October 13, 2016 by jrn1975

[jrn1975]

I have tried two different tool heads Phlier.  The factory dillion and a clamped whidden..  Both run about the same from a reliability standpoint.  

I am going to tear everything down again, clean, and re-align every part.  If that doesn't work, looks like I start replacing parts starting with the shellplate and then the platform.

Maybe my press is just suffering from tollorance stacking making station one mis-align.

 

[LawDog64]

I'm just about to give up on this press.  luckily a friend knows someone close by who has a 650 who can hopefully come by and help me out.

[AzShooter]

Send it to Dillon.  You won't be  sorry.  They will make it  right.

I just sent mine in.  I was having a number of problems.  All my fault from setting things up wrong and then when I had a jam I forced the handle down and broke a part.

Friday while loading ammo I made the mistake of forcing my handle down during a jam and breaking a part on my 650.

I was having a little trouble with it anyway. Shells wouldn't go in all the way on station one no matter what I did to adjust it. Primers were starting to go in sideways and it just felt like it needed service.

Fortunately I live in Phoenix and was able to get someone to drive me to Dillon.

(Explain) I'm in a wheelchair and need a caregiver to help me get around.

When I got to Dillon the salesman was nice enough to bring my press in from the car. I told him what was wrong and that it was my fault for forcing the handle.

He said there would be no problem and the machine would be taken care of by the next day. I asked if he could ship it back to me because I couldn't get a ride back for a week. Again, the answer was No Problem.

When I asked How Much? He said no charge, even for the shipping.

Got the machine back Tuesday...remember Monday was Columbus Day. Everything was fixed. When I opened the box I thought it was a new machine, there were even spare parts that I had left off it when delivering it to the store.

Now, It runs like it was brand new again. That company really knows how to take care of it's customers.

[wgj3]

Surely you've already checked this, but is there crud(powder, grease, oil, etc) in the shellplate cutouts?

I'm bad to do stuff wrong and I actually run 9mm with the "W" shellplate...

[theWacoKid]

I want to guess. I'd say your not adjusted right, but given all you've done that's not it. Looking at the misalignment of the hand inserted case I'd say your tool head is out of spec. Since you've tried multiple tool heads that's not it. So now I'd say the tool head locator pins are out of spec or the entire tool head slot is out of spec. 

Try seeing how it all aligns without locator pins and moving around the tool head. 

[hceuterpe]

Are you using a strong mount? If not, I wonder if you have enough clearance underneath with your bench setup for when you push the handle forward...

Sent from my m8wl using Tapatalk

[jrn1975]

Recap of what has been done..

Press was purchased new in 9mm.  It was installed on a bench that is bolted to the wall on a strong mount. There is absolutely no movement.  I previously loaded on a Hornady lock and load.. over 30K rounds without ever having an issue other than a broken primer slide that Hornady quickly replaced.

Out of the box…

Everything was setup per the Dillon instructions using all factory parts.  A lee U die was installed in the factory tool head using the method of the following:

1.      Ensured the shellplate was as tight as possible without binding.

2.      The shell plate was raised and the die was ran down to touch the shell plate and then backed off 1/8 of a turn.

3.      A case was inserted into station one and ram was raised all the way up to insert the case into the die.  At this time, the die was tightened down.

During this time, the press had a ton of issues with station one.  I was constantly needing to reach in and manually guide the case into the die. The case insert mechanism was clean and nothing was binding.

At this time I called Dillon and explained the issue.  The rep on phone told me to use Dillon dies and if that didn’t fix it, it must be something I am doing wrong.  I asked multiple time for him to send me out an alignment tool so I could double check the alignment.  He finally told me fine, but it wasn’t going to fix the issue as he believed the issue was me.

 

Alignment tool arrives.

I completely disassembled the press.  The platform was stripped down to a bare casting and every part was cleaned and lubed.

1.      Using the alignment tool, per the instructions, I aligned the platform.

2.      I installed the primer system

3.      I installed the shellplate, ensuring it was as tight as possible, without binding.

4.      I checked to ensure the index was centering the primer ram in the shellplate hole and adjusted as necessary.

5.      I installed the case feed assembly by the following method.

Installed a primed case into station two and had someone press the handle forward as if they were priming a case.

At this time I adjusted the rod that controls the case feeder advance per Dillon recommendations that I was given on my first call to them.

6.      I reinstalled the Lee U-die the same as before.

7.      Packed grease under the station 1 locator.

The press ran better after this.  Instead of guiding in 20 cases per 100, I was down to 7 or 8.

 

knowing the press should run better than this, I inspected the relationship of all the parts involved.  This is the time that I noticed the misalignment of the case to the die in the picture I posted for station 1.  Something just seemed off as the brass would never enter the die without touching the side first.  It is almost like the top of the case, when inserted fully into the shell pate is tipping out towards the case feeder assembly.  This happens with every position of the shellplate.

 

At this time, I figured it was a tool head issue.  I did some research and purchased the clamed Whidden tool head and the shellpate bearing kit.

When the toolhead arrived, I installed it per their recommendations.  Performance did not improved.  At this time I decided to try to align the platform with the new toolhead.  Following the same process as above, I aligned the toolhead with the platform.

The results were the same.  I would still need to guide 7 or 8 cases in manually into station 1 out of 100.

Completely puzzled at this point, I said screw it and bought the Dillon resizing die.

I installed it using the same method as I did the lee die.

Performance improved, but was still far from perfect.  While the misalignment no longer caused a hard stoppage, it now has change to a nice “clunk” as the brass hits the edge of the die mouth before being diverted into the die.  The main problem with this is, now the edge of the brass gets “dinged” up.

At this point, I am at a loss so I called Dillon again.  I explained the issue again.  The person on the other side didn’t give me an opportunity to explain everything I have already done, and immediately went into:

1.      Use Dillon dies.

2.      The shellplate must be loose.

3.      Or the case insert mechanism is not adjusted right.

I tried to explain to him that I had already checked/done all of those things and I am still having problems.  As soon as I told him the press was only a few month old, he said I was new to the press and I wasn’t operating it correctly.  I tried to send him the picture, but he never got it.  He was rushing to get me off the phone so at this point I said please call me back when you get the picture, I guess their spam software contained it as I have never got a call back.

 

So at this point, I figure it’s a shellpate /platform issue or tolerance stacking of the different parts.  I tore everything down again, and kept the platform loose enough that I could move it around a tiny bit and installed the shellpate.  I inserted a piece of brass into station one and ran the ram up.  What I noticed was that if I put a tiny bit of upwards pressure on the right side of the platform, the case aligns perfectly with the die.  The problem is, as soon as you tighten down the platform it pulls the right side down enough to throw it out of alignment. There is no up or down adjustment on the platform, only side to side.

So knowing that I can’t adjust the tolerance of the shellplate or platform, I decided to look at the toolheads.

 I found the Whidden floating tool that that allows station 1 to float the die a bit. Not knowing if that would fix the problem, I didn’t want to throw any more money at it.

 So I decided to convert my whidden clamped toolhead to float station one.  Using a clamped style lock ring and roll pin, I made the modifications.

While I haven’t had time to load on the modified tool head, initial observations show that the case aligns better with the die and now just “kisses” the side of the die instead of hitting the mouth and bouncing in. BTW, this was with the Lee U Die installed.

Sorry for the long rant, I just wanted document everything that has been done to try to solve this problem.  I plan on loading a few hundred rounds this weekend and will report back my findings on the last bit of modifications.

[Sarge]

18 minutes ago, jrn1975 said:

Recap of what has been done..

 

Press was purchased new in 9mm.  It was installed on a bench that is bolted to the wall on a strong mount. There is absolutely no movement.  I previously loaded on a Hornady lock and load.. over 30K rounds without ever having an issue other than a broken primer slide that Hornady quickly replaced.

 

Out of the box…

 

Everything was setup per the Dillon instructions using all factory parts.  A lee U die was installed in the factory tool head using the method of the following:

 

1.      Ensured the shellplate was as tight as possible without binding.

 

2.      The shell plate was raised and the die was ran down to touch the shell plate and then backed off 1/8 of a turn.

 

3.      A case was inserted into station one and ram was raised all the way up to insert the case into the die.  At this time, the die was tightened down.

 

During this time, the press had a ton of issues with station one.  I was constantly needing to reach in and manually guide the case into the die. The case insert mechanism was clean and nothing was binding.

 

At this time I called Dillon and explained the issue.  The rep on phone told me to use Dillon dies and if that didn’t fix it, it must be something I am doing wrong.  I asked multiple time for him to send me out an alignment tool so I could double check the alignment.  He finally told me fine, but it wasn’t going to fix the issue as he believed the issue was me.

 

 

 

Alignment tool arrives.

 

I completely disassembled the press.  The platform was stripped down to a bare casting and every part was cleaned and lubed.

 

1.      Using the alignment tool, per the instructions, I aligned the platform.

 

2.      I installed the primer system

 

3.      I installed the shellplate, ensuring it was as tight as possible, without binding.

 

4.      I checked to ensure the index was centering the primer ram in the shellplate hole and adjusted as necessary.

 

5.      I installed the case feed assembly by the following method.

 

Installed a primed case into station two and had someone press the handle forward as if they were priming a case.

 

At this time I adjusted the rod that controls the case feeder advance per Dillon recommendations that I was given on my first call to them.

 

6.      I reinstalled the Lee U-die the same as before.

 

7.      Packed grease under the station 1 locator.

 

The press ran better after this.  Instead of guiding in 20 cases per 100, I was down to 7 or 8.

 

 

 

knowing the press should run better than this, I inspected the relationship of all the parts involved.  This is the time that I noticed the misalignment of the case to the die in the picture I posted for station 1.  Something just seemed off as the brass would never enter the die without touching the side first.  It is almost like the top of the case, when inserted fully into the shell pate is tipping out towards the case feeder assembly.  This happens with every position of the shellplate.

 

 

 

At this time, I figured it was a tool head issue.  I did some research and purchased the clamed Whidden tool head and the shellpate bearing kit.

 

When the toolhead arrived, I installed it per their recommendations.  Performance did not improved.  At this time I decided to try to align the platform with the new toolhead.  Following the same process as above, I aligned the toolhead with the platform.

 

The results were the same.  I would still need to guide 7 or 8 cases in manually into station 1 out of 100.

 

Completely puzzled at this point, I said screw it and bought the Dillon resizing die.

 

I installed it using the same method as I did the lee die.

 

Performance improved, but was still far from perfect.  While the misalignment no longer caused a hard stoppage, it now has change to a nice “clunk” as the brass hits the edge of the die mouth before being diverted into the die.  The main problem with this is, now the edge of the brass gets “dinged” up.

 

At this point, I am at a loss so I called Dillon again.  I explained the issue again.  The person on the other side didn’t give me an opportunity to explain everything I have already done, and immediately went into:

 

1.      Use Dillon dies.

2.      The shellplate must be loose.

 

3.      Or the case insert mechanism is not adjusted right.

 

I tried to explain to him that I had already checked/done all of those things and I am still having problems.  As soon as I told him the press was only a few month old, he said I was new to the press and I wasn’t operating it correctly.  I tried to send him the picture, but he never got it.  He was rushing to get me off the phone so at this point I said please call me back when you get the picture, I guess their spam software contained it as I have never got a call back.

 

 

 

So at this point, I figure it’s a shellpate /platform issue or tolerance stacking of the different parts.  I tore everything down again, and kept the platform loose enough that I could move it around a tiny bit and installed the shellpate.  I inserted a piece of brass into station one and ran the ram up.  What I noticed was that if I put a tiny bit of upwards pressure on the right side of the platform, the case aligns perfectly with the die.  The problem is, as soon as you tighten down the platform it pulls the right side down enough to throw it out of alignment. There is no up or down adjustment on the platform, only side to side.

 

So knowing that I can’t adjust the tolerance of the shellplate or platform, I decided to look at the toolheads.

 

 I found the Whidden floating tool that that allows station 1 to float the die a bit. Not knowing if that would fix the problem, I didn’t want to throw any more money at it.

 

 So I decided to convert my whidden clamped toolhead to float station one.  Using a clamped style lock ring and roll pin, I made the modifications.

 

While I haven’t had time to load on the modified tool head, initial observations show that the case aligns better with the die and now just “kisses” the side of the die instead of hitting the mouth and bouncing in. BTW, this was with the Lee U Die installed.

 

Sorry for the long rant, I just wanted document everything that has been done to try to solve this problem.  I plan on loading a few hundred rounds this weekend and will report back my findings on the last bit of modifications.

 

Dillon rep usually hangs out on here and I don't recall if he chimed in yet.

IF everything is as you say, I would call and insist on a shipping label to send the damn thing back to the factory.

Something is wrong because I haven't had a tenth of the problems you have and my press is 5 years old!

Dillon presses are better than this

[jrn1975]

I agree Sarge.  From everything I have seen, Dillon presses are great.. That is the reason I made the purchase.   I am not mad, just a bit frustrated with the situation. This is by now way a bash against Dillon.  I completely understand that any manufacture of a product can have problems from time to time and no one is perfect.  I truly believe that this is a case where tolerance stacking of the individual parts are throwing things off. 

I may be new to this press but I am not new to reloading.  I understand the the smoothness and completion of each stroke of the handle is critical to proper function.  I just hope the floating toolhead modification builds back in enough tolerance to make things run smoothly. If not, I may just bite the bullet and purchase a new platform and shellplate.

Edited October 14, 2016 by jrn1975

[RDA]

With the die installed but the guts removed and station #1 empty, can you look down through the die as you raise the platform and observe the alignment? If you can't do this visually, you could use a proper fitting rod/dowel passed through the die and see if the die/tool head is aligned with the shell plate.

Have you tried a different shell plate?

[jrn1975]

I have not tired that method RDA.  However I have manually and fully inserted a case into the shellpate and observed the alignment of the case to the die.  What happens is the case hits the edge of the mouth of the die every time  As you continue to raise the platform, the case "tips" into the opening of the die. You can visually see the case "tip" to center itself in the die. I have yet to observe a case that enters the die without first hitting the outer edge of the die mouth. This happens on every opening of the shellpate. 

I see where you are going with the rod/dowel. To basically see if the center of the die is aligning with the center of the shellplate.  I will try this tonight if I can find a dowel.

I have not tried a different shellplate yet but it is on my short list.  The local store that sells Dillon products doesn't carry the shellplate, just the caliber conversion kits.  I may resort into picking one up for the shellpate this weekend if the problem continues.

Edited October 14, 2016 by jrn1975

[Phlier]

Really odd that a Dillon rep hasn't posted here yet.

Since we know that Dillon guys do hang out here, maybe you could email them a link to this thread.

You have certainly done your part to document everything. Now it's their turn.

Really hope you're able to get this resolved.

RDA, I'm not sure how this could be a shell plate problem.. wouldn't a problematic shell plate cause problems at *all* stations, and not just station one? I'm not at all familiar with the 650 (only the 550 and 1050), so I'm asking this to learn something new...

Edit: BTW... I'd stick with the U-die if at all possible. One guy here on the forums (you know who you are) brought it to my attention that using the Dillon resize die in 9mm can lead to setback problems with certain brass head stamps and FMJ bullets. The U-die completely solved that problem for me.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Phlier