2nd Shot Return to POA

[ES13Raven]

I'm looking to improve the speed of my second shot returning to Point of Aim. One that's 80% or higher likely to get an A / Zero.

I'm trying to call my second shot quicker, but it's taking longer than I want for the sights to settle.

I know the simple answer to this is "grip harder" - but what else can be done to train and improve 2nd shot accuracy at speed?

Anything I need to improve with my grip technique?

[Hi-Power Jack]

How fast is your 2nd shot now?

[ES13Raven]

9 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

How fast is your 2nd shot now?

I can have fast splits when I need to (my best is .11) but I'm taking about when trying to guarantee an A / Zero at targets 15 yards.

[ES13Raven]

For example, how fast Mike is shooting these targets:

https://www.facebook.com/125511560828725/videos/1169809016398969/

 

Edited October 4, 2016 by ES13Raven

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'd guess that if you have 0.11 splits, that your grip is pretty good.   That's 9 shots/second.   

[Pistolpete9]

I'm assuming that I understand your question correctly because I could also rip off .11 splits, but my splits on shots that required any real modicum of sight picture were much slower (well they are still slower than .11 obviously).  One thing that has really helped me is getting the right recoil spring in my gun.  Slow motion video helped.  When I watched how much my sights were dipping when the slide came slamming home I knew it was time to get a lower power spring in and it helped a lot.  I don't grip like a mad man and maybe that would help too, but just having the right springs is pretty big.

The other part of it is getting your eyes to really do the work that they don't naturally want to do.  Focusing on that sight picture as fast as possible and knowing the moment you can break the next shot is critical.  If I had to guess, much like myself, you are getting almost zero sight picture at all when you are pulling .11 splits.  It's probably more of a predetermined cadence.  It's fun and at close distances it can work alright, especially if you learned what cadence you need to have to get 2 hits.  However, it's probably teaching your eyes that they don't have to do any work on the second shot when you want to shoot fast.  I have purposely stopped shooting any shot where I can't call a solid hit and it has humbled me quite a bit.  Turns out that I'm not the blazing fast shooter that I thought I was.  However, I'm getting faster and always getting hits now (okay, not ALWAYS).  

Your fingers are plenty fast and I'd be willing to bet that your grip is good enough.  Get your gun sprung correctly for you and train those eyes and I would be surprised if you don't speed up.

Okay, now for someone who knows what they're talking about to chime in.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Pistolpete9
typos

[ES13Raven]

45 minutes ago, Pistolpete9 said:

I'm assuming that I understand your question correctly because I could also rip off .11 splits, but my splits on shots that required any real modicum of sight picture were much slower (well they are still slower than .11 obviously).  One thing that has really helped me is getting the right recoil spring in my gun.  Slow motion video helped.  When I watched how much my sights were dipping when the slide came slamming home I knew it was time to get a lower power spring in and it helped a lot.  I don't grip like a mad man and maybe that would help too, but just having the right springs is pretty big.

Yeah, on 15 yard targets - I'm definitely not getting 2 Alpha when ripping .11 splits. That's for close, open targets only. I have tried using slow motion video and different recoil spring combinations.  I have been using a 11# in my Shadow for a long time. Slow motion video showed me that 10# was too light, and was returning the POA a little high. 11# returned the front sight less high.  12# looked about right and put the front sight back where it was.  This was with shooting slow shots at a 15 yard target.

I tried the 12# recoil spring at my next match, and my accuracy was off.  Maybe I was just used to the 11# spring.

Quote

The other part of it is getting your eyes to really do the work that they don't naturally want to do.  Focusing on that sight picture as fast as possible and knowing the moment you can break the next shot is critical.

I've heard top shooters say get an acceptable sight picture, not a perfect one.  Acceptable being an A or close C.  I'm wondering if they are able to track the front sight so well, that they are able to take that second shot while the front sight is still in motion - just when it is on target.  Maybe I'm waiting too long for the sight to settle and I should try shooting while it's still in motion.

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

What are your splits at 15 yards when you "see the sights" and get your Double Alpha's?

[Pistolpete9]

I think the idea behind the recoil springs is that your sights shouldn't be bouncing under the target, so that as they start coming online you can start to break your shoot with full knowledge of where it will end up.

What kind of 15 yard double alpha splits do you currently have and what are you hoping for?

[uewpew]

As most have asked...what are your current 15yd splits and what are you hoping for?  Also, your grip picture is only showing part of the equation...  Right hand looks like a nice high purchase, but is the left wrist rolled forward and locked?  Are your elbows locked or slightly bent?

[johnbu]

Brace yourself so the gun doesn't move. Different than "gripping HANDS harder", more chest muscles squeezing.

I can't do it worth a hoot, but since thinking about it, it seems to help.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

Mike Seeklander refers to it as "crushing a walnut" between the heels of your palms - he has a youtube video on his preferred grip on Youtube. When I visualize clamping the palm heels together at the backside of the grip it really makes me use my chest/pecs to pull the arms in against the gun.

During Stoegers class he emphasized crush grip - hand strength. Squeeze so hard the fingernails of the weak hand turn white and dig into your relaxed strong hand underneath it, etc.

Play with both mental cues to make you drive the gun hard, see how they help. The hard part is dryfiring them until they're automatic and feel like the only right way to shoot.

[Corey]

It sounds like you are taking 1 sight picture and trying to rip the trigger twice as fast as you can hoping they both go in the same spot. You don't "call shots faster", you call them when the shot breaks and the front sight or dot lifts up. Doesnt sound like you are seeing that at all. Ignore the time, ignore the splits. Just try to shoot Alphas as fast as you can. 

Get a picture of the other side of your gun so we can see what your weak hand is doing, but the strong hand looks like its high in the grip like it should be.

Lot of people want to shoot fast, which is great. But if you focus on some split times rather than other more critical things like target transitions, moving into and out of positions, reloading smoothly and at the right time/way to be efficient you're going to lose way more time than what you gain by dropping a split from .20 to .15.

[ES13Raven]

21 hours ago, uewpew said:

As most have asked...what are your current 15yd splits and what are you hoping for?  Also, your grip picture is only showing part of the equation...  Right hand looks like a nice high purchase, but is the left wrist rolled forward and locked?  Are your elbows locked or slightly bent?

I'd have to look at some video of my matches with Shot Coach to verify, but I think on 15 yard targets when I'm lining up the A / Zero and shooting the second shot fast enough to have an acceptable sight picture - my splits are about .30 seconds.  When I'm trying to guarantee the 1st and 2nd A / Zero, they are more like .60 seconds.

I just shot 2 IDPA major matches, so I was really concentrating on getting 2 Zeros on every shot. When I watch my video, it looks and sounds a lot slower than I normally go for USPSA. In fact, even if I dropped a few -1s but shot faster I might have scored better.

What I eventually want to get to is how fast Seeklander is shooting in the video above (I shot the same match).

My left wrist is rolled forward (thumbs forward grip) but not overextended like Vogel has his left hand. I guess mine is more like Stoeger's where its neutral.  I will see if I can find a good pic.

I have always extended my elbows so they are locked. I have never tried to train them to be slightly bent. I understand that can act as a shock absorber, but I shoot a 147gr 9mm - there isn't much recoil, just a little muzzle flip that I need to settle down quicker.

Edited October 5, 2016 by ES13Raven

[BoyGlock]

Bill drill?

[uewpew]

1 hour ago, ES13Raven said:

What I eventually want to get to is how fast Seeklander is shooting in the video above (I shot the same match).

My left wrist is rolled forward (thumbs forward grip) but not overextended like Vogel has his left hand. I guess mine is more like Stoeger's where its neutral.  I will see if I can find a good pic.

I played the video with my shot timer next to the speakers (not the most scientific...) for the first three static targets I was getting .2 to .35 splits with about .45 transitions.  So you're not too far off with your "acceptable sight picture" splits...  

There is a lot of skills that need be executed at a high level to get to where you want and trying to solve it via a forum without seeing you shoot is a little difficult...

is your left wrist locked or just rolled forward?  I found rolling it forward enough to where it locks makes a difference (for me...)

How is your weekhand grip strength?  Do you train it...grip master, captains of crush, etc...?

Is your front sight crystal clear through the shot, recoil, & recovery?

I think bending your elbows slightly will help reduce your muzzle flip.  Most of the top shooters I've seen keep their elbows bent...either it's a fad or it makes a difference.

 

 

[Dr Mitch]

Step 1- buy grip exercisers

Step 2- work on your grip

Step 3- win

[ES13Raven]

On 10/5/2016 at 8:02 AM, Corey said:

Get a picture of the other side of your gun so we can see what your weak hand is doing, but the strong hand looks like its high in the grip like it should be.

This pic is from a match, so it's my actual grip being used:

[AngryFive0]

There has been some discussion here about grip, recoil springs, chest muscles and other things to put the gun back on target.  Yes grip, recoil springs, stance and set up all help to control recoil but they don't "drive" the gun.  None of these things are going to put the gun back to the A zone.  Much like on transition from target to target, you have to physically put the gun back in the A zone.  J.J. Racaza does s good job of explaining this in the following video.

 

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 5:28 PM, ES13Raven said:

I'm wondering if they are able to track the front sight so well, that they are able to take that second shot while the front sight is still in motion - just when it is on target.  Maybe I'm waiting too long for the sight to settle and I should try shooting while it's still in motion.

Don't wait on the sights to be back where it belongs, put them back.  On 15 plus yard targets (especially partials) I would not shoot while the sights are in motion, not an acceptable sight picture.  I would say these shooters are better at getting the gun ready to fire again. 

 

 

[ES13Raven]

1 hour ago, AngryFive0 said:

Don't wait on the sights to be back where it belongs, put them back.  On 15 plus yard targets (especially partials) I would not shoot while the sights are in motion, not an acceptable sight picture.  I would say these shooters are better at getting the gun ready to fire again.

Thanks for that video. I will have to experiment with that.

Here is another good I found. Mike talks about not needing the support hand wrist cocked forward/down:

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by ES13Raven

[uewpew]

4 hours ago, ES13Raven said:

Here is another good I found. Mike talks about not needing the support hand wrist cocked forward/down:

Here are 3 videos from Max Michel, Jerry Miculek, & Travis Tomasie talking about the benefits of locking your weak hand wrist.  

47sec in:  

 

 

1min 25sec in:

 

10min 25sec in:

 

[FTDMFR]

On 10/4/2016 at 2:28 PM, ES13Raven said:

I've heard top shooters say get an acceptable sight picture, not a perfect one.  Acceptable being an A or close C.  I'm wondering if they are able to track the front sight so well, that they are able to take that second shot while the front sight is still in motion - just when it is on target.  Maybe I'm waiting too long for the sight to settle and I should try shooting while it's still in motion.

 

Pretty much this.  It's a combination of tracking the sights better, knowing what kind of sight picture you can get away with for a given target presentation, and having good enough trigger control so that you can break the shot as soon and as fast as possible without disturbing the sight picture.

When I stop thinking about speed and just watch the sights, even though it feels slower at the time, I end up shooting faster AND more accurately than when I just shoot for splits and hope the hits are there.

For example, on stage 13 at the Western, before the beep, I just stared at the first plate and visualized my sight picture over it, and then watched my sights as I shot without rushing.  It felt SUPER slow, and I was expecting the time to be more in the 13-14 range.

Edited October 7, 2016 by FTDMFR

[ES13Raven]

On 10/6/2016 at 5:57 PM, uewpew said:

Here are 3 videos from Max Michel, Jerry Miculek, & Travis Tomasie talking about the benefits of locking your weak hand wrist.

As Seeklander said in his video, its more about locking the wrist tendons - not necessarily about having your wrist angled all the way forward.

Ben seems to do well with his support hand at this angle:

[waktasz]

Ben talks about this exact topic in the latest Practical Pistol Show podcast

 

[uewpew]

6 hours ago, ES13Raven said:

As Seeklander said in his video, its more about locking the wrist tendons - not necessarily about having your wrist angled all the way forward.

Why ask for advice on how to improve if you're not going evaluate it and try it?

if you want to "lock your tendons" and use your muscle to control recoil, then strengthen your muscles and grip the gun harder.