PCC SWEEPING

[Thomas H]

5 hours ago, Patrick Scott said:

I drag my DAA cart, gun attached as close to the line as possible, un-cart at "Make Ready", after shooting I either walk the flagged gun back to the cart or one of my buddies bring the cart to me at the end. It goes smooth and it takes no more time to get me through a stage than some folks who have long MR routines(Im not knocking them), or shoot Revo   j/k 

^^This.

The guy who would normally bring up the bag (for people with bags) just brings the cart up (for people with carts), and it gets done on the line at the end. 

Seriously, I think PCC would have a lot less grumbling from other people, and a lot less screwing around with muzzle direction issues, if we just went with "bag/unbag or cart/uncart on the line." 

 

[bret]

33 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

^^This.

The guy who would normally bring up the bag (for people with bags) just brings the cart up (for people with carts), and it gets done on the line at the end. 

Seriously, I think PCC would have a lot less grumbling from other people, and a lot less screwing around with muzzle direction issues, if we just went with "bag/unbag or cart/uncart on the line." 

 

I agree yet people seem to think PCC should be exempt from the rules, or get special rules for them.

You have to have a holster to participate in USPSA Handgun Matches, why not require all PCC to be flagged and bagged when not under the direction and supervision of an R.O. unless at a safe table?

[Sarge]

6 minutes ago, bret said:

I agree yet people seem to think PCC should be exempt from the rules, or get special rules for them.

You have to have a holster to participate in USPSA Handgun Matches, why not require all PCC to be flagged and bagged when not under the direction and supervision of an R.O. unless at a safe table?

As cumbersome as it may seem to some, I think you are on the right track. It would eliminate half of the rules that have been written for PCC and make a lot more RO's happy.

[Thomas H]

36 minutes ago, Sarge said:

As cumbersome as it may seem to some, I think you are on the right track. It would eliminate half of the rules that have been written for PCC and make a lot more RO's happy.

Agreed.  It would simplify a LOT of things, without actually creating any problems.  (Far as I can tell.  All of the "it will take so much TIME!" comments that I've seen from people I don't really understand---we have not had anything resembling that problem.)

[mreed911]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

As cumbersome as it may seem to some, I think you are on the right track. It would eliminate half of the rules that have been written for PCC and make a lot more RO's happy.

As a PCC shooter, I'd have zero problem with this (100% flag/bag rule).

[Patrick Scott]

As another PCC shooter I also agree. We should only be handling the guns at the line, under RO supervision and It should be flagged and bagged/carted all other times. 

[StealthyBlagga]

IF the following are done...

 

1) The Match Director provides a PCC Staging Area that is tight against a side berm (so folks can't inadvertently walk in front of PCC muzzles) and in reasonable proximity to the start position for each stage (so PCCs are not carried any longer than is necessary).

2) Each PCC shooter uses a chamber flag from beginning to end of the match.

3) The PCC is unbagged in the Staging Area by the next shooter only just before they are due to shoot, then rebagged in the Staging Area immediately after they finish shooting the stage. No need for direct RO supervision after the RIC command.

4) When unbagged, the PCC is carried muzzle pointing straight up at all times. DQ for any sweeping or muzzle not straight vertical upwards before MR and/or after RIC. NO SLINGS.

 

... then the opportunity for sweeping is virtually zero, the stage flow is unaffected, and nobody other than the PCC shooter is in any way inconvenienced. PCC shoters have to come to terms with not being able to see their targets until after their PCC is bagged.

I would like to see the concept of the Staging Area be defined in the rules with equal clarity to that of the Safety Area, stating clearly how the Staging Area should be delineated and what conduct is/is not acceptable.

If the MD does not/cannot provide such suitable Staging Areas, then I agree that bagging/unbagging only under RO supervision is the cleanest solution with the least drama, and adds only modest delay at most (particularly if the PCC shooter arranges for a buddy to bring their bag over to the finish location while they are unloading).

I think the rules should remain flexible enough to allow the MD discretion over which approach is best (unbagging/rebagging in a designated Staging Area vs. at the start/finish locations). We all want to avoid safety concerns, shooter discomfort and needless disruption to match flow, and I believe the above "rules of the road" would get us there.

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Patrick Scott]

^seems very reasonable. I do have a question though. My club is not going to do staging areas as far I can see. My cart is setup for muzzle down carry.  So absent a buddy to bring my cart to me, the RO is going to have to follow me(holding gun muzzle up and flagged) back to my cart to keep the range clear until I flip the gun over and cart it, correct?  I could set my cart up for muzzle up, but I don't like that idea as it puts the muzzle low and makes sweeping too easy.  
 

[blueeyedme]

I prefer a flagged PCC being carried to/from a cart parked at the birm (or stagging area) without RO supervision.  Be at the line with your flagged PCC and ready to go when it's your turn.  Return to your cart (or staging area) with your flagged PCC after the RIC command.  Frankly all this unbagging, uncarting, rebagging etc at the line wastes a whole bunch of time and I don't like it. 

A bigger problem right now is that there is no consistency with ROs.  Even in the same match ROs are telling the PCC folks different things when they come up to each stage.  Example: I want to run my stage as stated above, and the next stage CRO wants them unbagged at the line.

[Patrick Scott]

2 minutes ago, blueeyedme said:

I prefer a flagged PCC being carried to/from a cart parked at the birm (or stagging area) without RO supervision.  Be at the line with your flagged PCC and ready to go when it's your turn.  Return to your cart (or staging area) with your flagged PCC after the RIC command.  Frankly all this unbagging, uncarting, rebagging etc at the line wastes a whole bunch of time and I don't like it. 

A bigger problem right now is that there is no consistency with ROs.  Even in the same match ROs are telling the PCC folks different things when they come up to each stage.  Example: I want to run my stage as stated above, and the next stage CRO wants them unbagged at the line.

From personal experience at several matches at multiple clubs shooting PCC and ROing PCC shooters I have not seen any more time taken when shooters chose to unbag/bag or un-cart/cart at the line.   We give all shooters all the time in world at "Make Ready" its there time on the stage to do what they need to prepare to shoot. Out of the handful of PCC shooters I have run(doing this stuff at the line) none of them have taken as much time as some pistol shooters I have run. 

 

 

[bret]

8 minutes ago, blueeyedme said:

I prefer a flagged PCC being carried to/from a cart parked at the birm (or stagging area) without RO supervision.  Be at the line with your flagged PCC and ready to go when it's your turn.  Return to your cart (or staging area) with your flagged PCC after the RIC command.  Frankly all this unbagging, uncarting, rebagging etc at the line wastes a whole bunch of time and I don't like it. 

A bigger problem right now is that there is no consistency with ROs.  Even in the same match ROs are telling the PCC folks different things when they come up to each stage.  Example: I want to run my stage as stated above, and the next stage CRO wants them unbagged at the line.

bagging and unbagging PCC on the line does not slow down a match, or waste any time.

[Rangerdug]

IF the following are done...

 

1) The Match Director provides a PCC Staging Area that is tight against a side berm (so folks can't inadvertently walk in front of PCC muzzles) and in reasonable proximity to the start position for each stage (so PCCs are not carried any longer than is necessary).

2) Each PCC shooter uses a chamber flag from beginning to end of the match.

3) The PCC is unbagged in the Staging Area by the next shooter only just before they are due to shoot, then rebagged in the Staging Area immediately after they finish shooting the stage. No need for direct RO supervision after the RIC command.

4) When unbagged, the PCC is carried muzzle pointing straight up at all times. DQ for any sweeping or muzzle not straight vertical upwards before MR and/or after RIC. NO SLINGS.

 

... then the opportunity for sweeping is virtually zero, the stage flow is unaffected, and nobody other than the PCC shooter is in any way inconvenienced. PCC shoters have to come to terms with not being able to see their targets until after their PCC is bagged.

I would like to see the concept of the Staging Area be defined in the rules with equal clarity to that of the Safety Area, stating clearly how the Staging Area should be delineated and what conduct is/is not acceptable.

If the MD does not/cannot provide such suitable Staging Areas, then I agree that bagging/unbagging only under RO supervision is the cleanest solution with the least drama, and adds only modest delay at most (particularly if the PCC shooter arranges for a buddy to bring their bag over to the finish location while they are unloading).

I think the rules should remain flexible enough to allow the MD discretion over which approach is best (unbagging/rebagging in a designated Staging Area vs. at the start/finish locations). We all want to avoid safety concerns, shooter discomfort and needless disruption to match flow, and I believe the above "rules of the road" would get us there.

 

You are a scholar and a gentleman


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[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, blueeyedme said:

Frankly all this unbagging, uncarting, rebagging etc at the line wastes a whole bunch of time and I don't like it. 

Have you actually observed this issue?  Where?  What was the problem?

I have not---quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.  We've had a couple of matches where many of the PCC shooters all squadded together.  It took no longer for that squad to complete a stage than it did any other squad.

It is true, however, that this occurred where everyone knew they were to bag and unbag on the line, so they always arranged for someone to immediately bring their bag up at the end of the course of fire.  (And the same, of course, would happen if this was the rule.)

How will this waste a whole bunch of time?

 

I like StealthyBlagga's take on it---and would prefer the rules state something along the lines of "if a staging are {defined as XXXXX} is not designated by the MD, then the firearm may only be removed from the bag or cart either 1) under the direct supervision of an RO, or 2) in a safety area."    I note also that as a PCC shooter, I'm still going to bag and unbag on the line, because I want to follow the RO immediately after as the targets are scored.  

[blueeyedme]

2 hours ago, bret said:

bagging and unbagging PCC on the line does not slow down a match, or waste any time.

Brett, put a timer on it and get back to me.  Not going to get lured into one of your forum battles and get the thread shut down....LoL  ;-)

[blueeyedme]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

It is true, however, that this occurred where everyone knew they were to bag and unbag on the line, so they always arranged for someone to immediately bring their bag up at the end of the course of fire.

I think we are all still learning here...including the new PCC shooters.

[mreed911]

3 minutes ago, blueeyedme said:

Brett, put a timer on it and get back to me.  Not going to get lured into one of your forum battles and get the thread shut down....LoL  ;-)

When you bring the bag to the line while the course is being reset, unzip the bag/unlatch the case and set the unopened bag/case on the ground near the start position, there's zero difference in make ready time vs. a pistol shooter.  At make ready, retrieve carbine, insert mag as applicable, turn on sight if needed, assume ready position and go.  Zero difference.

The only extra time is between "bolt closed, hammer down, flag" and returning the carbine to the bag before "range is clear."  That's only a few seconds longer than ICHDH, at most, and is still followed by stage reset while the next shooter prepares for their run.

[Gary Stevens]

My club has welcomed PCC with little if any issues. I think one person had to be reminded of the need for a flag.

Each range has a rifle rack on it. Guns are brought to the stage carefully uncased and put in the rack. 

When it is time to shoot the rifle is carried muzzle up to the line and made ready to shoot. 

After shooting the rifle is flagged carried muzzle up to the bag/case/cart and stored.

No muss, no fuss, no time wasted.

Just common sense generously applied.

[blueeyedme]

7 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

My club has welcomed PCC with little if any issues. I think one person had to be reminded of the need for a flag.

Each range has a rifle rack on it. Guns are brought to the stage carefully uncased and put in the rack. 

When it is time to shoot the rifle is carried muzzle up to the line and made ready to shoot. 

After shooting the rifle is flagged carried muzzle up to the bag/case/cart and stored.

No muss, no fuss, no time wasted.

Just common sense generously applied.

Perfect way to handle it in my book.

[bret]

1 hour ago, blueeyedme said:

Brett, put a timer on it and get back to me.  Not going to get lured into one of your forum battles and get the thread shut down....LoL  ;-)

I have run shooters with PCC, I know it doesn't take any longer if they unbag it and rebag it on the line.

[Southpaw]

1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

Just common sense generously applied.

Something that seems to be lacking in many PCC threads 

[Rangerdug]

When you bring the bag to the line while the course is being reset, unzip the bag/unlatch the case and set the unopened bag/case on the ground near the start position, there's zero difference in make ready time vs. a pistol shooter.  At make ready, retrieve carbine, insert mag as applicable, turn on sight if needed, assume ready position and go.  Zero difference.

The only extra time is between "bolt closed, hammer down, flag" and returning the carbine to the bag before "range is clear."  That's only a few seconds longer than ICHDH, at most, and is still followed by stage reset while the next shooter prepares for their run.

So using that logic you just identify the reason for the staging area; minus the need for a bag caddy.
But the flaw in your statement is moving the bag and messing with it, at the line while people are down range. Granted maybe you're only unzipping it, but I wouldn't appreciate someone jacking with a gun/ bag that is oriented at me while I am downrange, I have a feeling I am not the only one.


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[bret]

12 minutes ago, Rangerdug said:

So using that logic you just identify the reason for the staging area; minus the need for a bag caddy.
But the flaw in your statement is moving the bag and messing with it, at the line while people are down range. Granted maybe you're only unzipping it, but I wouldn't appreciate someone jacking with a gun/ bag that is oriented at me while I am downrange, I have a feeling I am not the only one.


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The idea is not to unbag it until the make ready command, just like you would if you come to the line with a bagged handgun.

if it is ok to handle PCC with the bolt open or a chamber flag, why can't we do the same with pistols?

[dcloudy777]

On 11/30/2016 at 2:39 PM, Gary Stevens said:

My club has welcomed PCC with little if any issues. I think one person had to be reminded of the need for a flag.

Each range has a rifle rack on it. Guns are brought to the stage carefully uncased and put in the rack. 

When it is time to shoot the rifle is carried muzzle up to the line and made ready to shoot. 

After shooting the rifle is flagged carried muzzle up to the bag/case/cart and stored.

No muss, no fuss, no time wasted.

Just common sense generously applied.

 

Get rid of the flags and that sounds perfect.   

[Gary Stevens]

I don't mind the flags because USPSA has always operated on the "belt and suspenders" principle when it comes to safety.