New Rules Updates?

[Joe D]

None of the clubs here in Alabama are going by the light in the tunnel part of the rule.

[DrKyle1]

Well it will be interesting tomorrow for the new rules as this will be the first "Major" match at our club with the new rules... Fiesta Regional in San Antonio. I use a kydex to carry my g35 in and had the MD and several others check me out for being legal... said ok but then followed up with well we are not sure what rules we will be using for the match. I don't get it... if there are new rules there are new rules. Is this really a human nature type of thing where no one likes change or is it something else? I am new to the sport - not being flip with the question.

[jkelly]

DrKyle1,

For the most part, I think, the people who are against the new rules see them as being unfair and damaging (usually to themselves, but not always).

The sport is shooting, the game is IDPA and the rules are enforced locally.

As long as the clubs/shooters understand the consequences there should be no problem.

After all you can't expect the clubs/shooter to respect the rules, if IDPA doesn't respect it's own "Purpose" and "Principles". And by respect I mean follow the P&P in all it's Divisions.

As far as I can see clubs have always been selective about which rules they enforce or how they interpret them, so this is nothing new.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Shoepop]

The two clubs I shoot/shot with now run pretty loose where as before the rule changes they ran a pretty tight ship. Revolver has died for the most part. The sad thing is it was starting to increase at a pretty good pace until new rules. Our club hosted the state championships last year but so many of the movers and shakers that made it happen have left for USPSA that a state championship is not to be this year. I shot both because they were on different weekends but since the revolver change now mainly USPSA. My former IDPA legal L frame revolvers now gather dust I will be damned if I'm going to turn them into rattle traps shooting 165PF loads. When I do shoot and occasional IDPA I shoot SSP or CDP.

[rledwards]

My former IDPA legal L frame revolvers now gather dust I will be damned if I'm going to turn them into rattle traps shooting 165PF loads.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not trying to start anything, just really curious. If you are talking about a S&W 625, wasn't it designed for factory loaded .45acp? And isn't a 165 pf actually a fairly mild load in .45acp?

I can see not wanting to shoot .357Mag full time in a K-frame, but that is the only S&W I recall hearing would suffer from shooting the ammo for which it was chambered.

--Lin

[Bill Nesbitt]

Lin, I'm in the same boat. I have about a grand invested in a PC S&W 686 in 38 super. I've loaded some ammo that makes the 165 power factor but it isn't fun to shoot. I refuse to shoot ammo that hot and ruin my gun.

I'm shooting my Glock this year and shooting more USPSA.

Bill Nesbitt

[Shoepop]

A 625 45ACP is an N frame revolver and is referred to as a 'large frame' it can handle a huge amount of 165 PF loads without a problem. An L frame is referred to as a 'medium frame' You can shoot 165 loads through it but not a steady diet like in 'practicing on a regular basis' without it beating you and itself to death. So when the God's that be decided on 165PF they gave it (the L frame) a death sentence. They knew what would happen when they hung on the PF. Long ago S&W made what was called a model 19 chambered in 357 magnum. Well yes you could shoot 357 mags out of it but if you shot a lot with the hot 357 mag loads you would have a junk model 19 pretty quick. S&W figured this out pretty fast because there were a lot of folks with new worn out 19's so they came out with a model 27 with a larger frame, end of problem. Also folks figured out they could shoot 38 specials in their 19's and they would last forever. Now when I bought my L frame moon clip revolvers for IDPA the PF was 125, ABOUT the same as a 38 special so no problem. Now there is a problem and I solved it by going to fewer matches, shooting, SSP,ESP or CDP, by shooting MUCH more USPSA and helping found a USPSA club locally. I shoot a 625 N frame @ 165 PF in USPSA but that revolver is not IDPA legal, 5" barrel !!!!!!!

[Gil M]

I shot the Fiesta Regional Sunday, at the shooter's meeting it was made clear that the new rules were in effect. Four or five of the R.O.'s made everyone line up for equipment checks in their bays. One of the R.O.'s told my squad in one scenario that a couple of folks had to make equipment changes.

Of course, "following the new rules", did not preclude a gimmick of a blind stage, (clear the bank and expose yourself to several threat targets as quickly and recklessly as possible), and several scenarios in which shooters had to do a "dynamic approach" to threat targets. Quite IPSC like.

[revchuck]

Shoepop - Hate to burst your bubble, but the M27 came about in 1935 - it's the gun that brought out the .357 Magnum cartridge. It was originally called just the ".357 Magnum" because there weren't any others in existence.

[Shoepop]

You didn't burst my bubble Rev. I will be first to admit not to know everything and make mistakes all the time. A S&W historian I'm not. Regardless of time line my point is that K/L frame S&W's will not hold up under a steady diet of 165 PF loads. If I'm again incorrect please feel free to correct me.

[Bones]

I have shot 10's of 1000's 158 gr bullets out of my 4" 586 at 1100 fps with out affecting the gun. My guess is you'll break before your L-frame will.

The N-frame 357 preceded the K frame Model 19 - it did not follow it. The L-frame was S&W's response to the Colt Python and a longer term solution to the issues the K-frame had with high velocity 125 gr loads - both of which were developed after the Model 19 came into existence.

Craig

[Duane Thomas]

An L frame is referred to as a 'medium frame' You can shoot 165 loads through it but not a steady diet like in 'practicing on a regular basis' without it beating you and itself to death.

Regardless of time line my point is that K/L frame S&W's will not hold up under a steady diet of 165 PF loads. If I'm again incorrect please feel free to correct me.

Actually, the K-frame is the medium frame. I've always heard the L-frame referred to as the "medium-heavy" frame. The L-frame was designed specifically to stand up to immense amounts of 125-gr. JHPs at 1,450 fps out of a 4" barrel. That's a 181 pf load. Thus your L-frame should stand up just fire to a steady diet of 165 pf.

[Shoepop]

Duane, just going by what S&W refers to their L frame revolvers as (medium). I must be a wuz because after firing a couple hundred 168PF loads through my 646 I was a hurting dude and figure that no revolver built that light will withstand the pounding of 3-4 hundred rounds of practice a week and not beat itself to death. I'm not the guy that's going to try a torture test to find out ! I've spoken with an S&W rep and we discussed the fact that the average firearm owner actually shoots his or her weapon less than 500 rounds in a life time and 500 was considered the high side, this # was for a hand gun. We also talked about the fact most 357 mag owners shoot 38 specials and less than 200 rounds of factory 357 mag in a lifetime. He also acknowledged the 646 was built for IDPA competition. Although we did not discuss the 125PF I have a feeling we would never had a 646 if S&W knew it was going to be a 165PF competition revolver. I will just shoot my large frame @ 165 in USPSA and quit complaining about IDPA revolver rules.

[Clay1]

Little off topic but I own a model 27 in 357 mag that has an 8 3/8" barrel. My wife took her first deer with that handgun and I shot several with it. The 27 had upgraded features like checkering on the top of the sight plane where the 28 was just plain Jane. Shot a ton a 158 JHP through that piece and still own it. It wasn't fired much double action since it was a hunting piece for me. Keith Elmer is still my hero by the way.

When I think of that revolver I think quality and beauty when I think of my plastic (ok, ok synthetic) Glocks I think of functionality. If I had to pick between the two to pass on to the kids, there is no decision to debated, the 27 would be it.

[COF]

Shoepop, I hear you on the 646. I shot mine all last year with 130 - 140 PF loads. Shooting it with 170 PF loads is not nearly as much fun. That being said, I think practicing with the gun at the higher power factor is harder on it than shooting matches because of the limited number of rounds shot in a match. That's why I continue to load most of my practice ammo at 140 PF, just like .357 shooters shooting mainly .38's in their revolvers.

Will be shooting my first sanctioned match in a couple of weeks. Guess I'll find out then whether I'll continue to shoot the 646 or break down and buy another 625 to shoot ESR.

[Duane Thomas]

The 27 had upgraded features like checkering on the top of the sight plane where the 28 was just plain Jane.

Yeah, the 27s are beautiful pieces, the original .357 Magnum. The M28 aka the Highway Patrolman was the "budget" version added to the lineup years later for folks who wanted an N-frame .357 but didn't want to pay for niceties like the checkered topstrap or the 27's beautiful polished blued finish.

[Clay1]

I still remember the dealer asking if I wanted the presentation case. I said the book says that box is almost $75 or so and he said, the box cost $15 extra in that old grumpy voice that he had. Man those were the days. I bought that and a Dillion 450 which was THE hot setup back then.

[melman_1]

I shot the SC IDPA State Championship last weekend. It was shot under the new rules and nobody complained about it. You really couldn't tell a difference. The only equipment check that was done was to make sure your concealment garment covered the mag pouches and holster and while doing that they made sure that the mag pouch and holster were where it was supposed to be on the belt. They didn't get down on hands and knees and check for slivers of light. There was a few people that could tell a difference though and that was on stage 9 of the match. It ate peoples lunch with failures to neutralize. Two 3's or a miss and a 3 down really hurts . So that was really the only effect the new rules had there.

Mike

[Duane Thomas]

I talked to my IDPA club's president about the last match - the first under the new rules. Unfortunately I wasn't able to attend, but according to him there was a noticable lack of "drama." The only way you could tell things were different, as melman_1 mentioned, was the new FTN rule, with its greater emphasis on accuracy, bit a few people.

[jkelly]

Of the last three matches I've shot, two IPSC (or IPSC style) and a Pin and Plate match, what little discussion of IDPA there was (among cross over shooters) seemed to focus on:

a) The rule changes are unfair (double action in ESP).

The rule changes are stupid (light in the belt tunnel).

c) A general distrust of IDPA HQ and BoD.

I haven't shot an IDPA match with the new rules yet. I guess I'll get around to that later this year with at least a Classifier or two.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[revchuck]

My first major match under the new rules will be TX Spring Regional at Eagle Lake. I'm shooting SSR/SS. I'm seriously thinking about using my Colt Official Police...just because...

[Bones]

The SSR population (7) matched or outnumbered CDP (3) & ESP (7) populations at the 1st match at S&W since the installation of the rules changes (an all-flashlight match). There was (1) ESR shooter.

[the duck of death]

What new rules? Untill we get a rule book there are no new rules. IDPA can't be bothered to send out a new rule book our club will go by the LAST RECEIVED Green Book.

[Mayonaise]

What new rules?  Untill we get a rule book there are no new rules.  IDPA can't be bothered to send out a new rule book our club will go by the LAST RECEIVED Green Book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And obvious attempt at humor I suppose.

Shot the first sanctioned match under the new rules. Bit myself in the ass with the new FTN rule. Such is life. Go figure. I'm already over it.

JoeD,

Does the AC ignore the holster rules too? I forgot to ask him on Saturday.

[the duck of death]

*QUOTE*

And obvious attempt at humor I suppose.

No it's not. The "RULES" that come thru the IDPA web site may or may not be legitimate. As far as our club is concerned only the Green Book is OFFICEAL.