Attracting People To The Game

[MBaneACP]

Tightloop My Brutha!

Here's why nobody's doing what needs to be done:

1) It costs money to hire professionals, even if the professionals work at the brother-in-law rate.

2) USPSA has a long and venerable history of not being the easiest people in the world to work with. LOL!

3) In truth, there's no honest-to-goodness consensus on whether the organization and the sport wants/needs to grow.

4) Practical shooting is by its nature visual, but the sport itself is not media friendly in the way its laid out.

5) It's hard to train camera crews to work around guns...I have the two best crews in the business for that, and it has taken a huge amount of work and money.

6) There are venue issues, as xsrdx has noted, but part of the problem is that USPSA does not play well with others. There are spectacular shooting venues — the Whittington Center, the National Shooting Complex in San Antonio, blah blah — that have never or rarely been used for practical shooting. Our idea of a classy venue seems to be putting up a poster of a Bud girl and spray painting some grafitti on the barricade. Make fun of the Cowboys all you want, but their venues make GREAT television.

But I digress.

mb

[JFlowers]

On the matter of venues ...... SASS, which is a private for-profit company compared to USPSA's non-profit status, is in the final stages of completing a new shooting facility. The range, called Founders Ranch, is just outside of Albuquerque, NM. What a show of solidarity it would be to move an Area or the Nationals to that facility.

[tightloop]

michael

Lets start with #3 first...which I think is the crux of the problem....It has to start from the top down if USPSA is to grow..from Voight on down, and a mandate has to be given....but it seems that Mr. V is too busy shooting to worry about really promoting the sport and trying to manage by example..

It is great that the Pres of the organization is a nationally recognized shooter himself, but, it would seem that management and vision at that level are more important than putting another trophy on your shelf...IMO

#2 follows along the same line as the one mentioned above...if a mandate is given to work and play well with others, it would happen...but maybe someone cannot make a decision like that if they are not looking toward the future, and are absorbed in participation at the present....

#1 and 5 are yours to solve...you are in the business...find a way....if you want it badly enough..you should be able to make it happen...

#4 is also a management issue...instead of putting on 3 or 4 half assed Nationals, and being the red headed step child of IPSC world wide, why can't someone on the executive level make a long term plan to again join forces with IPSC for the overall betterment of the sport... I know there is the American and National leagues in baseball, butjust seems to me it ran better before the split..

and then finally, the venue problem....I am sure someone could be found to lease or donate a parcel of land for a permanent site to host the Nationals and then you would have a venue for perpetuity....approach one of the Hollyweird rich who likes to shoot and there you have it..

Agreed, it will not be easy, but then again nothing worth while never is....seems like there needs to be some executive management to make some decisions with some foresight and vision for the sport instead of living just for the immediate future...

Sorry if this steps on anyone's toes, but surely I cannot be the first one to notice the lack of longterm planning that is happening (mostly NOT happening)...but maybe I am just the first to say anything about it...

Again, I would be happy to have you or anyone else in the management team enlighten me as to the real issues and reasons something can't be done....

David Winkler

[Jim Norman]

One of our problems on the local or regional level is that we share our facilities with others. Most USPA clubs are actually a club within a club. We cannot take over 50% of the facility on a permenant basis to set up stages that are just there. Two reasons really, one the others like to come in and jsut shoot and second, sadly the props would turn into target holders and get shot to crap.

That said, we could all do better jobs presenting our stages if we painted our fence sections and doors. However being the competitive people we are, we tend to put our efforts into stage design, not designer stages. Most of us would rather shoot then paint!

A perfect example of this is a 3-Gun, we put up three pallets and a low port, space them out across the range and hand the shooter a 25 pound ammo can, tell hime carry it point toi point and shoot at all the targets from each side of the concealment. No visuals for the camera here.

Great stages as far as the challenges go, but from a cameramans point of view we stink. SASS has those stylish clothes. What would we wear? Everything that the people that do for a living what we do for fun is essentially banned as range wear. We are not to show up in the costume of the period, ie., Black BDU's and a Balacava with Fritz Helmet or Camo and face paint. Not that I want to! But the Cowboys do have it oiverus in that respect, they can dress up not only their venues, but themselves. Our dress makes us look more like walking billboards if we are sponsored or just a bunch of good ole boys. Jeans and "t" shirts are not all that photogenic, especially if your feet are in perpetual shadow.

Jim

[johnhurd]

why can't someone on the executive level make a long term plan to again join forces with IPSC for the overall

Be very careful what you wish for

[tightloop]

Well John, don;'t just leave it hanging...what is the problem with merging with IPSC again....we were one cohesive unit at one time...when Jeff was running things before Jake Jatras got in there....

[Rifter]

Have you guys thought about looking at what Paintball is doing? I have been playing paintball for over a decade now, and things have REALLY changed. It has gone from hiding in the trees in Camo, to full blown sports fields with team jerseys that you can buy. With paint flying in all directions, it can be a hassle getting good shots of the action, but camera crews have done it. There is a new "varriation" of the sport that was designed with TV in mind, and many of the newer speedball/tourney fields are being built to make it easier to watch (be it a spectator or camera crew). I think that Paintball and USPSA have similiar "mainstream" drawbacks, and would be good to look at.

[Ben Stoeger]

I didn't care for what paintball turned into. I would hate to see the same thing happen to shooting sports. I am more concerned with having fun then making it easier for other people to watch me have fun. Selfish? You bet.

[Shipster]

Hey you want to see whats going on? One of our owen members has the solution! It's called Hoser cam. Talk about a birds eye view of whats going on! I don't think camera angle is a problem.

[Jim Norman]

There are several and many problems with fully aligning with IPSC. Say good-bye 10 round production, say good-bye Limited and Limited-10, say hello Production is limited light and anything other than 9mm can't play. Toos your 140 mags in Limited. Say good-bye to the Real Classic, now called Metric target. Say good-bye prize tables and hello little bauble type metals and few trophies.

Most of the dumb rules that the new book has came from the rest of the world, let them join us.

Aligning with IPSC will not make us any better liked or more likely to be on TV on Sunday afternoon instead of some dumbass football game. Ain't gonna happen. What could be good is a few good TV productions of major and not so major matches. What would be very helpful might be if the TV people were brought in in the design stage of the match to give some input into how the stages should look. What would show the to the best advantage. True we don't care that there is no grass and that the range reminds one of Death Valley Days, but a little properly applied paint, a few decent doors and props might give people a better idea.

Our scoring system is difficult, but I feel that that can be overcome at large matches by adding in a factor, call it percentage of available points earned. True I may have more points than you, but I have earned less of a percentage of the available points because I shot all large point stages. It wouldn't be perfect, but it might be an indicator or the leaders. This might help a bit. BUt in reality, we will only attract realatively competitive people that are not deeply into team, but rather individual sports.

Just wondering, but how many of our shooters did any of the following:

Motorcycle Racing, Scuba, Hang-gliding, Rock Climbing, Skiing, Windsurfing. All of these are generally solitary sports, true climbing has other people involved, but you are on your own as you move up the rockface. People in Teamsports are and may even be as competative, but theydo it as a team if they are successful. They pass, throw, hand-off and the like, we are totally responsible for our own success or failure, right down to the ammo we load for ourselves!, How many golfers make their own gear?

We are a breed apart and as such we will never acheive the mass appeal of other sports. Take away the dress-up aspect of SASS and I bet it would die on the vine, It is that, not the shooting that atttact so many.

Jim

[short_round]

Our idea of a classy venue seems to be putting up a poster of a Bud girl

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like the Bud Girls ...

[TreblePlink]

I agree with Shipster - being a relative newbie myself, having shot some local matches at a few different clubs, I've seen a fair group of fellow newbies at each. Organized assistance has been variable. I have to wonder if retention isn't a bigger problem than attraction. The folks that have made it out to the local match are ripe for recruitment. I would suggest that formal guidance be more standardized, - a written handout and mentoring. If this was someone other than the RO, who is usually plenty busy, it would be best. Maybe a club member could be waived match entry fees for mentoring a squad with newbies?

[George]

Hey, do we wanna be generally regarded as range tactibillies with a loose structure (if any) and no real goal other than putting lead in berms and drinking beer after we are done, or do we wanna be regarded on par with the extreme sports and be thought of in the way the Olympics are thought of when you mention action shooting. Maybe even have action shooting included as a demo sport there some time soon?

If you want the former. listen to the white knight. If you want the latter, let go of the tactical attitude from the past that is keeping us very incognito because of the general perception of who we are and what we do and fess up to the fact that this is racing, plain and simple.

As much as it will make you a better shooter in a tactical situation, it is still just plain racing and no different from being better able to handle emergency maneuvering on roads because you have NASCAR level driving skills. A good public face can be put on any type of racing if that is what you want to do.

IPSC has recognized that prize loot is not why folks strive for making it to the Olympics. Until we let go of the prize table concept and get the sponsors to pony up cash instead, we are just a bunch of lead flinging gun (and shiny parts) mongers.

The glory is in the chase, not the swag at the banquet.

--

Regards,

[jm951]

Just a couple of thoughts here from someone new to IPSC/USPSA/IDPA style shooting, but not shooting competition.

I've noticed that even in the MB tapes of the "big" matches, the props aren't that great for a "national" match. You want some good video of an event that someone other than a shooter would take an interest in, improve the props. Not that I care that much personally while actually competing, but my social director/finance minister has commented on how boring and odd it looks. I've shot SASS but it's too much like WWF with guns for my taste. I don't want to have to remember a personna while shooting a match. The shooting was great fun, so I've moved to action shooting in a more modern setting and have taken a strong liking to 3 gun.

If you want video, it doesn't have to be done by a camera guy. There are great small remotes and flying wire cameras for those shots that would be extremely dangerous for a person to get. Remember how the video for the last Super Bowl was shot?

Having a set range with permanent stuff would be great for nationals, but the devil is in the details of how to pull it off. A suggestion would be to include some form of tower, an enclosed shoot house, and "hogan's alley" as permanent stages. The shoot house should be capable of being done dark and reconfigured for every match.

Keep the prize tables. It looks great on camera to see someone walking away with the "big'un". A medal is nice, but IIRC, there is also prize loot for placing in most forms of racing. You want to gun race, why ditch prizes?

Keep the production classes. Have classes for other weapons but even in sports car racing, there are classes for bone stock vehicles. IHMSA had a strict production class and it worked well. When the NRA tried to adapt the format, they allowed some mods to "production" guns and the interest in the handgun metallicas shilouttas pretty much evaporated on the east coast. If you want to run a big buck STI, SVI, Kimber, Para, whatever, you should have your own class. Let's face it, even in the world of racing, there are classes. You don't put Micheal Schumacher in an F1 Ferrari up against somebody who runs in A Prod in SCCA just because you can or because Schumacher has a bigger pile behind him. To assert that "if you wanna play, you gotta pay" is the height of arrogance, and I've noticed some in this game are eat up with it. That attitude will turn off the overwhelming vast majority of new shooters, and lead to no growth and eventually the demise of this game. Keep the Production class, that's where a new shooter will begin. Face it, the average shooter wanting to start will likely get a production gun that could be carried in the "real world" as opposed to the latest STI with trick barrel, comps and a holosight. Sure some of you hard apples would try it, but for my money when the crap hits the fan, it's a stock 1911, Glock, SIG or HK that goes bang every time. As that new shooter gets deeper and sees others with the race stuff, they'll naturally want to go faster and will gravitate to the higher classes. That guy's enthusiasm will rub off on others and they will start, beginning the cycle again.

I can't say enough about getting kids interested. Daddy likes to shoot and compete, and hey, here's a jr class for kiddo. Get the kid interested and mom will at least approve of the bonding time with Dad. She might even start competing. For an example of this, look at the world of go kart racing.

Since the games are supposed to vaguely reproduce some type of tactical situation, there's still no reason there can't be a "one guy against the world" type of scenario as a fun stage. Let out the inner Rambo and have a blast. Not every stage needs to simulate the "real deal". I've been there, and until the poppers and cardboard can shoot back, it ain't even close to the "real deal".

A couple of other comments- I like IPSC matches for the round counts and movements. I like IDPA for the "tactical" flavor, but the FDR rules can get frustrating as to me, being able to solve a tactical problem on the fly should make me a better shooter since part of the game is solving the problems while shooting. I prefer 3 gun because that means nothing is left lonely in the safe and they all get to come out and play. There are politics in all of the organizations, and I'd about say that IDPA (IMHO) is the worst in that regard, but nevertheless, it's their game, you shoot their rules. I'm interested in getting rounds downrange, so I shoot both now. Club level matches tend to be more relaxed in general, but I'm looking forward to doing some larger matches in the future.

As for the personality type shooting these games, I'm sure you'd find pretty much the gamut, but the most common traits would likely be a desire to compete and an addiction to the adrenaline rush a stage can provide. In my case, I've played team sports through college, climbed rocks and mountains, and drive cars at speeds I won't admit to, but the common factor for me is a form of competition and the rush. Most of the other competitors I've met have been great folks so I guess the company goes along with that.

[jm951]

BTW- NASCAR and driving skill are pretty much mutually exclusive ideas. Montoya and Gordon switched cars for a show on SPEED and Gordon couldn't even turn a lap that would make the back of the grid in F1 while Montoya would have been in the middle of the grid for NASCAR, that on his first couple of laps.

Back to the shooting discussions-

[George]

NASCAR was a bad choice. F1 is better. Moto GP is best of all ;-)

World IPSC and USPSA need to be one and the same, or we will never be anything but an American paramilitary training phenomena in the overall world eye.

I absolutely agree that our stages have absolutely no visual appeal. If a professional producer wanted to do a real good job with a piece on this sport, it would be shot on a sound stage because the locations are too unappealing in most part. Either that, or lease an estate with nice grounds to stage it.

As far as shooting crews (camera and video professionals) go, training them to be around guns is no big thing if you have intelligent crew members and run a professional ship there shouldn't be any issues (I coordinate video crews for a living). Good (video) shooters are entheusiastic, but they are not stupid and will only do what they are allowed to do, or encouraged to do when on location.

Real good (video) shooters and top dawg field production techs can capture anything at it's best, but it will only look great "if" they have a producer that knows how to get stuff that actually looks good in front of the camera. Bad scenic is always bad scenic and if thats what you let a crew shoot, thats what you will get. Painted and gussied up, or not, if you want to shoot stuff that looks tactibilliy, then the props and ranges we use are fine. If not, the scenic shop and the sound stage are going to get a call ;-)

I know exactly what a good producer would do if given "shooting a good looking piece of action pistol match footage" as an assignment. he would mock it up, or maybe go to an IPSC World Shoot ;-)

--

Regards,

Edited April 20, 2005 by George

[xsrdx]

In general - this sport will always have limited appeal unless we change it's nature. You can suck at golf and still have a decent day, less true about shooting. It's a tough reality check that many shooters simply don't want to explore.

The expiration of the AWB, and the post-9/11 attitude that seems to be more tolerant of RKBA and individual personal security, will have a positive effect - mostly on 3 Gun/MultiGun.

This sport sells itself to those willing to endure it's idiosyncracies - the only sure way to widely increase it's appeal may be to radically alter it, probably to a degree none of us would be very enthusiastic about.

[zhunter]

OK, here goes, as a Newbie, I know virtually nothing about IPSC rules, and only enough about the Green Book to be dangerous! Aligning ourselves with IPSC is a waste of time, our market, TV/Sponsor wise is the biggest in the world!!!! So IPSC does not bring anything to the table that would be worth changing for in a commercial sense!

I would be glad to elaborate, and will do so if need be, but I will leave it at that for now!

[tightloop]

zhunter

IPSC was the governing body of the sport when it was formed....and I was a member shortly there after....I still have a really hard time and almost gag when I have to say or write USPSA instead of IPSC, as Jeff Cooper intended....but that is another thread entirely...

I agree with George that it would probably be better to mock up a sound stage to film a piece about action shooting...the scenery where we shoot has no appeal as does golf, and even Clays...(ever shoot at Glenn Eagles with Jackie Stewart?) it is beautiful...

I don;t give a hoot in hell about prizes...it is the competition and seeing the other shooters that gives me a rush...so do with the prizes what you wish...

I also agree with George about the paramilitary training in the US if we do not repair the bonds with IPSC and the world organization...that is what we look like...

Just one more slap at the management issue, if you will....even the US holds an election every 4 yrs to pick another President and it is mandated that the current one step down every 8 yrs to get fresh ideas...even if it is within the same political party...fresh ideas are always good and infuse new life into any organization..

Almost everyone is correct when they say that unless there are wholesale changes within the sport it will never grow larger and get the attention that some desire...but there are those of us who know that because of the nature of the sport, it will always have a limited appeal and almost NO camera appeal for the masses...we enjoy it anyway....

If you are not changing as an organization, evolving if you will, you are dying....It will never be all things to all people and the advent of more classifications and divisions is NOT the answer to that problem.....and I personally feel that Revo, Open, Limited and Prod are enough...and all within each of those divisions should shoot heads up and forget the classes entirely...but I have beaten that horses before to no avail....

Just my thought....

[zhunter]

TL

I have shot too many rounds of Sporting Clays at Gleneagles to count! As a matter of fact, I am undefeated in three shooting competitions at the Jackie Stewert Sporting Clays Field!

[Shipster]

I don;t give a hoot in hell about prizes...it is the competition and seeing the other shooters that gives me a rush...so do with the prizes what you wish...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm with Tightloop on this. Don't even get me started on prizes or prize tables.

Shipster

[tightloop]

Zhunter

Love the avatar....and maybe we can shoot some clays together sometime...I too have shot at Glenn Eagles, not a lot, but a few times...simply beautiful...

Noticed that you acquired Merlin as a mentor.....what a great guy...shot with him last yr at the Space City shoot..just a super guy...

I need help with my putting...after you beat me at clays how about a lesson...

[Stuck in C]

Random thoughts:

Practical pistol will never be as popular as golf, tennis, etc. In order to attract a huge number of people to the sport you would have to change it to the point that I for one would be no longer interested. What we need to do is attract more of the shooters out there that would fit in the sport as it now is-and I think there are many out there. That might work through mentoring, personal invitations, and to be welcoming to new shooters instead of the stuck up elitism I occaisionally see. And keep Limited-10 and Production divisions the way they are so new shooters can use what they already have.

There are big cultural and legal differences between the countries that shoot IPSC and the USA (USPSA). The permit and licensing requirements for many countries means you have a small, elite group of competitors that are very serious about the sport. You don't have Bubba from down at the gas station coming out to shoot his single stack 1911 in local matches only. Do we really want to lose all those people by conforming to IPSC rules?

[zhunter]

Zhunter

Love the avatar....and maybe we can shoot some clays together sometime...I too have shot at Glenn Eagles, not a lot, but a few times...simply beautiful...

Noticed that you acquired Merlin as a mentor.....what a great guy...shot with him last yr at the Space City shoot..just a super guy...

I need help with my putting...after you beat me at clays how about a lesson...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TL

Putting is easy, it is only two dimensional. Distance control is the most important thing, when you can control the distance, then, and ONLY then can you pick a line for a putt to break. Ya see, having the proper line is no good if ya hit it the wrong speed!

And as for the Sporting Clays, you will most likely kick my butt! I was shooting against a bunch of golfers. One of the golf shaft companies used to sponsor the shooting competition every year, or 3 years anyway while we played the Scottish Open at Gleneagles! It was great, a whole week of shoot as much as you like, FOR FREE!!!!!

[jm951]

Watch it with the 1911 single stack comments, I started with one, but am moving on. That, if not taken in the spirit intended, could well be interpreted as that arrogant elitism that turns off many new shooters. Let's face it, how many new to the sport are going to be running STI, SVI, or (insert race gun of choice here) as their first guns?

Having watched IPSC, IDPA and USPSA for a while before taking the plunge, I've met some pretty intense guys with the very attitude that I've pointed out. If I wasn't thick skinned about that stuff, I'd be very turned off by some folks. My son and I both shot an IDPA club match a while back and even then, this 20yr old kid observed that there were some folks there who were real arrogant jerks and he'd never want to be around them again. Fortunately, we were squadded with a great group who were helpful and fun to be around. Bottom line is, had we been stuck with the jerk squad, my son would never plunk down the $$ to shoot IPSC, IDPA, or USPSA ever again. Rules squabbles aside, treat the new guys like dirt, they won't be back and will leave you to your sandbox. In the business world there is a truism that a satisfied customer tells only 3 of his acquaintances about a good experience, but will tell more than 10 of a bad experience. If you want to expand this sport, keep that detail in mind.