Standing outside the shooting area

[motosapiens]

To clarify a bit, if the WSB is clear and concise then obviously there is no problem. However, if it is ambiguous then I'll pass judgement on what it means.

On the bright side, by the time someone belly aches about it, and the RM responds, chances are I will have ran too many shooters to re-shoot, and it will be determined I was correct after all .

Well stated and totally true imho, but not nearly as much fun as swinging our purses at each other on the internet.

[sfchorn]

Is that an actual NROI ruling, or is it just a conversation? You know how it is - everybody has opinions, but the written one is the one that we rely on.

I sent an Email to DNROI, Troy answered it, not sure if that is official enough for you but it is for me.

You can ask him whether or not it's an official ruling if you want to.

Just to be clear on this point - it is NOT an official ruling. The only official rulings are posted here: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-rulings-listing.php

Quoting from the page: "The head of NROI will frequently answer questions regarding the rules from members. Answers to routine questions which do not have the impact of "rulings" are not published on this page. Although rulings are generally issued by NROI, the USPSA Board has final authority over all rulings. Each of these rulings was made available to the board for a 7 day "review and approval period", and publication on this page indicated board approval."

Having said that, I have emailed Troy a couple of times in an effort to be consistent with what is being taught and enforced. The more I understand why a rule exists, and how it is meant to be fairly and equitably enforced makes me a more consistent RO. An opinion from the DNROI, even if not an official ruling, comes from years of experience. Are they perfect? Nope. I've read threads where current and former RMIs disagree. But I always learn something during the discussion.

I have great respect for the RMI staff. When they speak, my brain is engaged and my mouth in in neutral. Doesn't mean I don't question them, but it does mean I'm more interested in getting it right than being right.

[bret]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

[motosapiens]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Edited May 20, 2016 by motosapiens

[teros135]

Well, It's hard to see how Troy is "wrong". He provided an interpretation of the rule, and he's the DNROI, so it's his call.

Actually, I remember his saying, near the end of the Front Sight piece, that stating "standing outside the shooting area" isn't actually the best or the clearest instruction. If the stage designer and/or MD wants to make sure your feet are both outside the lines, they can simply SAY SO in the WSB. If he doesn't, you can start with one in/one out. No biggie.

That said, we played around with this last weekend and found, generally, that one foot in/one foot out isn't really dramatically faster. But YMMV, as they say.

Edited May 20, 2016 by teros135

[bret]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

[motosapiens]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

the english language is clear. faulting is not the same as being outside. He is using the same mistaken logic you were. but that's fine, if we all use the same definition, everyone is happy.

[ac4wordplay]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

Are you suggesting that DNROI is incapable of being wrong?

[bret]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

the english language is clear. faulting is not the same as being outside. He is using the same mistaken logic you were. but that's fine, if we all use the same definition, everyone is happy.

A shooter is at a safe area handling his gun, one foot over the line, rest of his body and the gun is not overy the line, just one foot.

Got DQ'd for being outside of the safe area.

Was he in the safe area or outside the safe area?

[bret]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

Are you suggesting that DNROI is incapable of being wrong?

I didn't say that I asked why he was wrong.

[motosapiens]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

the english language is clear. faulting is not the same as being outside. He is using the same mistaken logic you were. but that's fine, if we all use the same definition, everyone is happy.

A shooter is at a safe area handling his gun, one foot over the line, rest of his body and the gun is not overy the line, just one foot.

Got DQ'd for being outside of the safe area.

Was he in the safe area or outside the safe area?

that's a good example, but it's still not outside, it's faulting or not being completely inside.

but it doesn't matter. we have an interpretation and we can be consistent now. i'm cool with that even if it's a misuse of english. consistency of rules is more important than logic of rules in relation to the english language.

[bret]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

the english language is clear. faulting is not the same as being outside. He is using the same mistaken logic you were. but that's fine, if we all use the same definition, everyone is happy.

A shooter is at a safe area handling his gun, one foot over the line, rest of his body and the gun is not overy the line, just one foot.

Got DQ'd for being outside of the safe area.

Was he in the safe area or outside the safe area?

that's a good example, but it's still not outside, it's faulting or not being completely inside.

but it doesn't matter. we have an interpretation and we can be consistent now. i'm cool with that even if it's a misuse of english. consistency of rules is more important than logic of rules in relation to the english language.

He was DQ'd and others have been DQ'd for the same thing.

The offense was called handling a firearm outside of the safe area.

Edited May 20, 2016 by bret

[ac4wordplay]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

Are you suggesting that DNROI is incapable of being wrong?

I didn't say that I asked why he was wrong.

Thanks for answering. I was curious. Some people think that DNROI, simply due to the title, can't be wrong.

[RJH]

DNROI may be wrong because English is not his forte? When you were a kid and your mom told you to go outside, and you stood straddling the threshold, she should have slapped you and told you to get your ass outside. It appears that maybe Troy and Bret had bad mothers, for letting this faux pas go unchecked.....

[bret]

DNROI may be wrong because English is not his forte? When you were a kid and your mom told you to go outside, and you stood straddling the threshold, she should have slapped you and told you to get your ass outside. It appears that maybe Troy and Bret had bad mothers, for letting this faux pas go unchecked.....

Nice dragging our mom's into this.

[bret]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

Are you suggesting that DNROI is incapable of being wrong?

I didn't say that I asked why he was wrong.

Thanks for answering. I was curious. Some people think that DNROI, simply due to the title, can't be wrong.

When there is a ruling by NROI about a rule, who makes the call?

[motosapiens]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

the english language is clear. faulting is not the same as being outside. He is using the same mistaken logic you were. but that's fine, if we all use the same definition, everyone is happy.

A shooter is at a safe area handling his gun, one foot over the line, rest of his body and the gun is not overy the line, just one foot.

Got DQ'd for being outside of the safe area.

Was he in the safe area or outside the safe area?

that's a good example, but it's still not outside, it's faulting or not being completely inside.

but it doesn't matter. we have an interpretation and we can be consistent now. i'm cool with that even if it's a misuse of english. consistency of rules is more important than logic of rules in relation to the english language.

He was DQ'd and others have been DQ'd for the same thing.

The offense was called handling a firearm outside of the safe area.

So? that doesn't change the meaning of 'is', mr clinton.

As long as we are consistent, it's all good. Now let's get back to banning glocks, like the other troll thread.

[bret]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

the english language is clear. faulting is not the same as being outside. He is using the same mistaken logic you were. but that's fine, if we all use the same definition, everyone is happy.

A shooter is at a safe area handling his gun, one foot over the line, rest of his body and the gun is not overy the line, just one foot.

Got DQ'd for being outside of the safe area.

Was he in the safe area or outside the safe area?

that's a good example, but it's still not outside, it's faulting or not being completely inside.

but it doesn't matter. we have an interpretation and we can be consistent now. i'm cool with that even if it's a misuse of english. consistency of rules is more important than logic of rules in relation to the english language.

He was DQ'd and others have been DQ'd for the same thing.

The offense was called handling a firearm outside of the safe area.

So? that doesn't change the meaning of 'is', mr clinton.

As long as we are consistent, it's all good. Now let's get back to banning glocks, like the other troll thread.

Seems pretty consistent if you are partially outside an area whether it's a shooting area or a safe area, you are not inside the area.

One foot outside is considered outside for safe areas and start position.

[Yardbird]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

the english language is clear. faulting is not the same as being outside. He is using the same mistaken logic you were. but that's fine, if we all use the same definition, everyone is happy.

A shooter is at a safe area handling his gun, one foot over the line, rest of his body and the gun is not overy the line, just one foot.

Got DQ'd for being outside of the safe area.

Was he in the safe area or outside the safe area?

that's a good example, but it's still not outside, it's faulting or not being completely inside.

but it doesn't matter. we have an interpretation and we can be consistent now. i'm cool with that even if it's a misuse of english. consistency of rules is more important than logic of rules in relation to the english language.

He was DQ'd and others have been DQ'd for the same thing.

The offense was called handling a firearm outside of the safe area.

So? that doesn't change the meaning of 'is', mr clinton.

As long as we are consistent, it's all good. Now let's get back to banning glocks, like the other troll thread.

Seems pretty consistent if you are partially outside an area whether it's a shooting area or a safe area, you are not inside the area.

One foot outside is considered outside for safe areas and start position.

Say WHAT!? One foot in and one foot out is not considered inside the box, but IS considered outside the box? That's ridiculous...

[motosapiens]

Seems pretty consistent if you are partially outside an area whether it's a shooting area or a safe area, you are not inside the area.

One foot outside is considered outside for safe areas and start position.

I agree that partially outside is not inside, and the rules require you to be inside the safety area.

I do not agree that partially outside is outside, even tho for rules purposes we have been directed to pretend.

I like pretending. I'm going to pretend glocks are not legal for uspsa now.

Edited May 20, 2016 by motosapiens

[Nik Habicht]

Inside the NROI Column in Front Sight answered the question.

If the WSB says start outside the shooting area and you have one foot in and one foot out, you are outside the shooting area.

Not an official ruling but Troy McManus DNROI is the one that answered the question.

Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.

Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong?

Are you suggesting that DNROI is incapable of being wrong?

I didn't say that I asked why he was wrong.

Thanks for answering. I was curious. Some people think that DNROI, simply due to the title, can't be wrong.

When there is a ruling by NROI about a rule, who makes the call?

Well, at some point the BOD decided that DNROI was capable of being fallible, i.e. human, and they requested seven day notice of intent to publish an interpretation, so they could weigh in and/or overrule the call.....

Troy is fabulous and actually explained it really well -- if the language is only outside, then one foot out technically meets that requirement because the competitor isn't in. But Troy also identified the real crux of the problem -- that the WSB wasn't written tightly enough.....

[bret]

I agree, if they want you completely outside the shooting area say.

Start position

Anywhere completely outside shooting area or wholly outside shooting area.

If it says outside shooting area heels touching marks on the rear fault line, I can have one foot in and one foot out and still comply with the WSB and the rules.