Production Major

[ES13Raven]

Giving that same guy a full house CZC accushadow or fully slicked up Tanfoglio is a much more accurate representation of what shooting a tricked out 2011 is like.

I don't buy that for a minute. I have shot a CZC SP-01 Shadow Custom for the last year. It has a nice 2.5# SA pull and short reset. But it's nothing compared to the 2011 triggers of friends I shoot with.

Another drawback is the DA first pull. Today I shot a stage where I had a mini-popper as the firs target. Did I hit it on the first shot? Yes. Would it have been a lot easier with a Single Action first pull? You damn right.

[ES13Raven]

And why does any of that matter is the bigger question?

Different division rules, equipment, guns.

He was trying to convince me that if Production added major PF, it would be the exact same as L10. But you nailed it - Different division rules, equipment, guns.

[Gooldylocks]

Giving that same guy a full house CZC accushadow or fully slicked up Tanfoglio is a much more accurate representation of what shooting a tricked out 2011 is like.

I don't buy that for a minute. I have shot a CZC SP-01 Shadow Custom for the last year. It has a nice 2.5# SA pull and short reset. But it's nothing compared to the 2011 triggers of friends I shoot with.

Another drawback is the DA first pull. Today I shot a stage where I had a mini-popper as the firs target. Did I hit it on the first shot? Yes. Would it have been a lot easier with a Single Action first pull? You damn right.

I'm saying that you chose one of the most atrocious triggers that has ever been devised by mankind as your example of a gun off the production list to compare to a custom 2011 trigger. Hence the apples to eggplant analogy.

I shoot a CZ Tactical Sport for Limited and a 2011 for Open, and they both have pretty dope triggers, but I have also shot and dry fired several different CZ's and one slicked up Tanfo, and I don't think the DA has enough of an effect over the course of a match that it would cost you any places in the standings. Would your mini popper shot have been easier with a SAO? Yes it would be, but then again maybe you should practice your DA more on tiny targets!

Granted, the Production rules are different in IPSC, but Eric would have won Standard against all of those fancy SAO guns with his DA blaster at the last World Shoot. Something to think about.

And why does any of that matter is the bigger question?

Different division rules, equipment, guns.

He was trying to convince me that if Production added major PF, it would be the exact same as L10. But you nailed it - Different division rules, equipment, guns.

I agree that they are different divisions as they are, but if you add major to production it would be L10 without magwells. Literally no one would shoot minor if they wanted to be competitive.

[ES13Raven]

I shoot a CZ Tactical Sport for Limited and a 2011 for Open, and they both have pretty dope triggers, but I have also shot and dry fired several different CZ's and one slicked up Tanfo, and I don't think the DA has enough of an effect over the course of a match that it would cost you any places in the standings.

Yes, but you are ranked Master in Limited. You have put a lot of time and effort in, and the transition is easier for you then a C Class shooter.

Would your mini popper shot have been easier with a SAO? Yes it would be, but then again maybe you should practice your DA more on tiny targets!

Hey - I did hit it on the first shot

[Garmil]

And why does any of that matter is the bigger question?Different division rules, equipment, guns.

He was trying to convince me that if Production added major PF, it would be the exact same as L10. But you nailed it - Different division rules, equipment, guns.

Would still be different than limited 10. But it makes it a step closer to L10 and a step further away from a level playing among guns on the list. which is unnecessary

[teros135]

Periodically somebody starts a thread about making Production "better" and we get all wound up discussing the various guns, rules, etc.

It's a pretty cool Division, lots of fun, and great for all the 9mm newcomers (Major folks are welcome to start in Limited, and that works pretty well).

But Production ain't broke. No "fix" is needed.

[Gooldylocks]

Would your mini popper shot have been easier with a SAO? Yes it would be, but then again maybe you should practice your DA more on tiny targets!

Hey - I did hit it on the first shot

Good work!

I am certainly not implying I could hit a mini popper shooting DA, (hell most of the time I can't hit them shooting SAO. Accuracy by volume.) and that wasn't supposed to sound dick-ish (it kinda does when I reread it, sorry about that), I'm just saying that I think the differences are probably not that significant in the grand scheme of things that happen in a match.

Most stages we are moving when we are drawing, most stages there is a more open/easier target to engage first to get that DA pull out of the way, most stages we are moving while we reload.. All I am trying to say is that over the course of a match I think it would probably even out pretty close to the same.

No hard feelings, sorry for coming off a bit harsh.

[Nik Habicht]

because if you kept the same 10-round capacity limit, everyone would have to shoot major or else suck. there are several divisions like that already.

Same reason why not many shoot L10 minor, but at least the option exists.

Production guns are different than Limited guns, but why not reward additional recoil of 165 PF like the other divisions?

Because there ought to be one division where minor pf 9mm (commercially available) ammo can play without handicap......

Because otherwise we might as well shoot L10......

Because the division is extremely popular.......

[Nik Habicht]

I'd like to see 8 round major in production

I might be able to get behind 6 round major -- if you're willing to shoot a revolver....

[Nik Habicht]

Why mess with the most popular division? what is broken about it?

Never said it was broken, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved.

Then why ask the question? Why not lay out how you might think it could be improved?

[Gooldylocks]

Why mess with the most popular division? what is broken about it?

Never said it was broken, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved.

Then why ask the question? Why not lay out how you might think it could be improved?

He did lay out why he thinks it could be improved. In his opinion those that are willing to deal with major power recoil should be rewarded for that. However I don't think that would be an improvement to one of the most successful divisions.

[shooterDrew]

Seems to me that minor scoring is a big part of what makes production such a different division. I'm mainly a production shooter and have been since I started. Occasionally I will shoot a match in limited and shooting major.. it's like a whole different game. Once I get where I want to be in production I will likely make a move to open or limited and try to learn that game. But for now shooting minor with 10rnd mags is what makes production so difficult to master... Or at least get to master. Minor shooting makes the focus on accuracy pretty heavy if you want to do well, which makes me feel like I'm building better basic skills by shooting production now. I definitely like what it is now, even though sometimes I wish I could be scored major or have 20 rnds for a stage!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gary Stevens]

There is a simple solution for those who want to "fix" production. Get yourself elected as an Area Director, make a motion to "fix" production, then get a second, then get five votes, and Shazam it is done.

[Nik Habicht]

Why mess with the most popular division? what is broken about it?

Never said it was broken, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved.

Then why ask the question? Why not lay out how you might think it could be improved?

He did lay out why he thinks it could be improved. In his opinion those that are willing to deal with major power recoil should be rewarded for that. However I don't think that would be an improvement to one of the most successful divisions.

I guess I'm not seeing how that improves the division? Personal preference does not equal improvement.....

Tell me how it will make the game more exciting, bring in more competitors, make the competition harder/easier, etc......

Tell me that you've thought about all the trade-offs and that we won't lose more than we'll gain.....

[ES13Raven]

Literally no one would shoot minor if they wanted to be competitive.

OK, a couple of people have mentioned this as a reason.

What if Divisions were separated by minor & major? So if you shoot Production Major, you are only competing against those shooting Production Major.

L10 Minor and SS Minor might get more popular too.

[Gooldylocks]

Literally no one would shoot minor if they wanted to be competitive.

OK, a couple of people have mentioned this as a reason.

What if Divisions were separated by minor & major? So if you shoot Production Major, you are only competing against those shooting Production Major.

L10 Minor and SS Minor might get more popular too.

I normally am not on the whole "watering down the competition" side of divisions, but I do think that would be way too much watering. You would definitely end up with 1 shooter in SS Major, 1 in SS minor, 1 in Revo major, minor, etc etc at local matches. Not gonna work.

And, by doing that, you aren't being punished when you don't make chrono shooting a "major" division. You go minor at at Open Nationals when planning to shoot major, and you aren't gonna be happy about it. If divisions were separated by power factor then you wouldn't be getting punished for it, you would just be shooting a different nationals, against the minor shooters that registered as that. Yet again, I think this isn't good.

L10 minor is not competitive with L10 major, under any circumstance that I can think of. And you know what? That's okay. There are divisions where minor is competitive, shoot one of those, or, get a major gun.

SS minor is EXTREMELY competitive with SS major at many matches. If there is lots and lots of steel or the targets are more open, then yea run the minor gun and have the TWO EXTRA shots. The extra capacity is what makes it a viable choice. As soon as it is the same capacity, no way.

Look at revolver. The only division where nearly everyone shoots a minor gun by choice. What makes it a viable choice over major? Two extra rounds. (two very important rounds in that case, since USPSA is built around 8 shot arrays, means no standing reloads).

This idea was just recently beat into the ground on making minor in Limited competitive, by giving them 150mm magazines (for 26ish rounds instead of 23 of 9mm) or something equally ridiculous. I know shooters far better than me that can shoot Limited minor and crush us all, but they are the exception. In general, the 2 extra rounds isn't enough of a motivator to lose major scoring, when I still have 21 reloadable in my 40 mags.

This is just my opinion, YMMV

[rowdyb]

Open minor, Open major. Limited Major, Limited minor. Production Major and Production minor. No L10 and no SS but we'd end up with 6 semi auto divisions, so an increase of 1 if you don't currently count CO. I have no dog in the fight so I'd buy that.

The times I've shot L10 was using my exact same Prod gun and set up.

Edited December 7, 2015 by rowdyb

[motosapiens]

Why mess with the most popular division? what is broken about it?

Never said it was broken, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be improved.

making all current production guns obsolete and allowing no division for minor to be competitive would not be an improvement imho.

[motosapiens]

Giving that same guy a full house CZC accushadow or fully slicked up Tanfoglio is a much more accurate representation of what shooting a tricked out 2011 is like.

I don't buy that for a minute. I have shot a CZC SP-01 Shadow Custom for the last year. It has a nice 2.5# SA pull and short reset. But it's nothing compared to the 2011 triggers of friends I shoot with.

Another drawback is the DA first pull. Today I shot a stage where I had a mini-popper as the firs target. Did I hit it on the first shot? Yes. Would it have been a lot easier with a Single Action first pull? You damn right.

That sounds like an excuse. I'm just a lowly A shooter in production and singlestack. I commonly shoot a fancy 1911, a cz75b in 40 (with some trigger work) and a cz tacsport (one of the nicest triggers you can get anywhere).

In practice, I have found that the DA trigger pull costs me zero time out 10-12 yards, and a tenth or so at difficult shots (like 20 yard minipoppers).

In steel challenge matches (which I shoot every week for the warmer half of the year) my times are virtually identical with all 3 guns, despite starting in DA mode with the 75b.

[ES13Raven]

I'm just a lowly A shooter in production and singlestack.

Lowly?

Looks like you are in the top 10% of all USPSA shooters if you ask me:

Correction: Top 13% in SS, and Top 14% in Production.

Edited December 7, 2015 by ES13Raven

[motosapiens]

I'm just a lowly A shooter in production and singlestack.

Lowly?

Looks like you are in the top 10% of all USPSA shooters if you ask me:

Correction: Top 13% in SS, and Top 14% in Production.

sweet. i'm a badazz. I need to put those numbers in my signature.

[Norther]

[quote name="9x45" post="2511169" timestamp="1449462135

If I were the El Prez, there would only be 2 divisions: "Unlimited", pistol caliber only, no limitations on anything, 175 power floor and "As Manufactured" Box stock, factory only parts, 145 power floor, that's it.

That would wipe out everything I enjoy shooting.

[eric4069]

::ETA:: The best way to pseudo-scientifically test this would be to have someone that is equal parts production and limited shooter (of any skill level), that has a 40 caliber production gun such as those listed above and also dedicated Limited blaster shoot the same match back to back with both, both shooting L10 major. That would demonstrate the point spread that having a magwell, race holster and maybe a thumbrest (if you have one) makes on overall placement.

Not exactly what you are suggesting but I did shoot a match back-to-back with my CZ Production gun (minor) competing in Production Division, and my Limited gun (major) 2011 type competing in Limited Division. In the combined overall standings I got 3rd place overall with the Limited gun, 5th place overall with the Prodution gun.

My percentage score was about 3-4 % higher overall with the Limited gun and I beat ONE more person with the Limited gun than with Production gun.

Eric

[GForceLizard]

The beauty of production is eveyone shoots 10 rounds minor. Don't make it single stack. No need to decide if the match favors 8 round major or 10 rounds minor. Any introduction of major PF will cause the balance to shift. If you don't change the ammo capacity then everyone that wants to win HAS to shoot major. Leave Production alone.

[Gooldylocks]

::ETA:: The best way to pseudo-scientifically test this would be to have someone that is equal parts production and limited shooter (of any skill level), that has a 40 caliber production gun such as those listed above and also dedicated Limited blaster shoot the same match back to back with both, both shooting L10 major. That would demonstrate the point spread that having a magwell, race holster and maybe a thumbrest (if you have one) makes on overall placement.

Not exactly what you are suggesting but I did shoot a match back-to-back with my CZ Production gun (minor) competing in Production Division, and my Limited gun (major) 2011 type competing in Limited Division. In the combined overall standings I got 3rd place overall with the Limited gun, 5th place overall with the Prodution gun.

My percentage score was about 3-4 % higher overall with the Limited gun and I beat ONE more person with the Limited gun than with Production gun.

Eric

See there you go, even with the big mags it is only worth 4%. I bet Production Major = L10 (within a percentage point, I would guess).