Ty Hamby Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 A little back story: USPSA Level II Shooter engages target multiple times. The base of the popper had became loose and was rocking. The shooter shot, pause, shot again, pause, shot several more times. then finally rapid fired the target to get it to fall over. It was an activator for the CoF so he kept shooting at it, to get it to activate the drop turner and swinger. All hits were in the calibration zone. The shooter also knows the calibration rules and knocked it over anyway. Upon ULASC the RO said. "That target has been screwed up all morning. I would have already fixed it but the RM told all staff to not mess with the poppers and wait for a shooter to call for calibration so I have left it alone. You should have stopped It is really screwed up". The shooter replied. "Why have you not called the RM for calibration?". The RO "No one asked"The shooter told the RO, he would like to speak to the RM, and the Rangemaster was called. The Rangemaster decided on his own he would shoot the target for giggles. The Rangemaster hitting the calibration zone failed to knock it over with 3 separate adjustments. Rangemaster offered a reshoot. This upset people because the shooter shot down the target. The RM offered the reshoot. He cited C1(7) "In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test....." He said " the popper had a known problem and without even shooting the popper myself, the RO already admitted the activator (popper) was not operating correctly. The RO should not have started the shooter until he believed the stage and all of its props and activators are working properly." He failed to contact me long ago when he first believed the popper was out of calibration". Now, what say you all? Reshoot or No Reshoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 No reshoot, RM and CRO were still both wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 No reshoot. The shooter has a decision to make as to whether he wants to ask for a calibration on the popper AFTER he finishes the stage. The decision is to either move on in the stage and leave the popper up or gun it down. This is his decision and his alone. HE MUST ASK FOR A CALIBRATION. Nobody else can ask. If shooters would bother to read the rule book they would know what they can and cannot do. The RM and CRO obviously didn't read the rule book either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 No reshoot. His fault, RO fault, RM fault, doesn't matter once the popper is shot down. What bothers me is the RM telling stage staff to not adjust anything. As a good CRO you should notice steel getting heavy and adjust as needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BARRYJ Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 After it is knocked down, no reshoot. Can't call for a calibration on a knocked down popper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 At South Carolina a few years ago I was watching the squad n front of mine. Almost everyone shooting Production was having trouble with a popper due to it settling in the sand. When it was my turn to shoot I asked for a calibration due to the forward lean on the popper. It was granted and failed calibration. After it was adjusted I shot with no problems. I guess they could have refused but the end result would have been the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Hamby Posted November 2, 2015 Author Share Posted November 2, 2015 Calibration of the falling popper was not the reason for a reshoot. The reshoot was awarded because the shooter was allowed to begin a stage the RO later admitted was defective or broken. He knew this to be true and loaded up shooters anyway. I'm no USPSA expert so I was trying to understand the other shooters dismay. What if it was not a popper but a door that had fallen off its hinges and an RO kept starting people. BTW this particular RO is an a$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Yeah I know. I was just relating a story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 You know what, I'll go against the grain.Reshoot. Because we sometimes have to allow space for common sense, if the stage is agreed upon by everyone that it is broken, fix the bloody thing and then have the shooter reshoot it. And do that early as soon as the thing is noticed as being broken, so you don't have to reshoot half of the shooters in the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 You know what, I'll go against the grain. Reshoot. Because we sometimes have to allow space for common sense, if the stage is agreed upon by everyone that it is broken, fix the bloody thing and then have the shooter reshoot it. And do that early as soon as the thing is noticed as being broken, so you don't have to reshoot half of the shooters in the match. I hear you and I even agree but the rule doesn't support it. If the shooter had simply stopped shooting it and called for calibration we would probably not be talking about it. Another thing to consider, how many other folks spent way too much time knocking it down. If one gets a reshoot they all should have gotten a reshoot or the stage should have been tossed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 You know what, I'll go against the grain. Reshoot. Because we sometimes have to allow space for common sense, if the stage is agreed upon by everyone that it is broken, fix the bloody thing and then have the shooter reshoot it. And do that early as soon as the thing is noticed as being broken, so you don't have to reshoot half of the shooters in the match. Quote the rule that allows this? You start allowing this to happen, then there will always be an excuse for a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I think tossing the stage due to the RO's negligence makes a lot more sense than giving the guy a reshoot. You knock over the popper, you own it. Otherwise, call for calibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 To Sarge and bret's answers to Vlad...USPSA has a rulebook. We have to go by the rulebook. If a mistake is made, you go by the rulebook to sort it out. Been there done that on both side of the timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Forgive me for applying logic when the rule book is broken Mr Frag has the correct real answer, if the stage was broken for multiple shooters, throw it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Also I want to share how much I'm loving the thread title, I'm going to use "pooply" a lot as a adjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Follow the rules, otherwise the rules mean nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I am of the opinion that the calibration procedure/rule in USPSA is one of the most stupid things about the sport. Why is this RO being an a$$? Reliving his glory days as hall pass monitor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 If you feel the range officer is not being fair or there is a problem with a stage or a prop in a stage, ask for the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 The rulebook in this case is not "broken". This is, based on the description from the OP, purely a problem with the RO and the RM being in error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 The rulebook in this case is not "broken". This is, based on the description from the OP, purely a problem with the RO and the RM being in error. Sure, what does the rule book say about the RO and the RM being in error? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 (edited) You know what, I'll go against the grain. Reshoot. Because we sometimes have to allow space for common sense, if the stage is agreed upon by everyone that it is broken, fix the bloody thing and then have the shooter reshoot it. And do that early as soon as the thing is noticed as being broken, so you don't have to reshoot half of the shooters in the match. Quote the rule that allows this? You start allowing this to happen, then there will always be an excuse for a reshoot. Not the first time we've had a discussion like this, and it looks like the usual suspects are lined up on the usual sides of the issue. If the stage is obviously broken, a reshoot is in order due to a range equipment malfunction. more importantly, RO's should take care of a known problem *before* it screws someone and hardasses who only read some of the rules finish the screwing. A broken or malfunctioning prop has been cause for reshoot before, even at nationals. Edited November 2, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 You know what, I'll go against the grain. Reshoot. Because we sometimes have to allow space for common sense, if the stage is agreed upon by everyone that it is broken, fix the bloody thing and then have the shooter reshoot it. And do that early as soon as the thing is noticed as being broken, so you don't have to reshoot half of the shooters in the match. Quote the rule that allows this?You start allowing this to happen, then there will always be an excuse for a reshoot. Not the first time we've had a discussion like this, and it looks like the usual suspects are lined up on the usual sides of the issue. If the stage is obviously broken, a reshoot is in order due to a range equipment malfunction. more importantly, RO's should take care of a known problem *before* it screws someone and hardasses who only read some of the rules finish the screwing. A broken or malfunctioning prop has been cause for reshoot before, even at nationals. If the shooter doesn't think the stage is working right ask the Range Officer to have the RM come look at it. Shooters complain about things on a stage quite a bit in my experience, most of the time it isn't legitimate. I do what I can to make sure a stage I work at is fair to all shooters, and when I was with a squad at IPSC,made sure the stages were fair to my squad and that things were not changed on them from when we shot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 There are shooters that will paste a target before it is scored if their buddy had a bad stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 There are shooters that will paste a target before it is scored if their buddy had a bad stage. That is neither here no there. On the data provided the damn stage was broken, as agreed upon by the rangemaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 (edited) There are shooters that will paste a target before it is scored if their buddy had a bad stage.I don't know how that comment is relative to this discussion.But, I will go ahead and take bait anyway...two easy solutions for that: 1. After "range is clear", only the CRO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter go forward of the line to score. Everyone else must remain back with peanut gallery. If you wanted to be really gung ho about it, place another set of two by twos on the ground, or a rope or snow fencing barricade, and say "NO ONE is permitted past this point until the RO says "scoring is complete" ". 2. Have some disinterested 3rd party do the pasting, like the Boy Scouts working on their rifle and shotgun merit badge. Now back to the thread...if I were to buy a product or service off you that you knew ahead was faulty, and you did not divulge the fault prior to the transaction, is that not fraud? Am I not buying some part of a match when I show up to a stage and should rightfully expect everything is working properly? Edited November 2, 2015 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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