Is there a place in our sport for rifle shots beyond 60 yards?

[Stlhead]

You are arguing that because all the matches in your area are full, the match directors in the entire country do not care what the shooters want to see at their matches. I don't think that leap makes sense. It may make sense in your area, but certainly not around here, and I think not for the long term anywhere. The quality matches fill fast and have wait lists, there are matches that do not fill or that at least fill very slowly. I think that as consumers get more educated, poor matches will be less attended even where insufficient supply exists. I believe strongly that match directors who do not pay attention to the desires of the majority of the shooters who regularly attend their matches will eventually suffer. Our sport is also a volunteer sport, I feel that the majority of match directors feel some sort of obligation to provide a quality experience for their customers (friends) who shoot the matches. There is also a good measure of pride that a good match director will take from running what they feel is the best match possible. I give the match directors and all the people who volunteer in our sport credit, I think they by and large care what people want, and try to deliver. I know when I work a match I try and make it the best I can, otherwise why bother to volunteer at all?

Vlad, if you really think that the match directors don't care about the desires of the shooters attending the matches how could you support them?

[Vlad]

I'm sure they care, but I also think you are forgetting about all sorts of variables. This isn't entirely the choice of a match director, very often the facility dictates the match flavor as well.

Your original post ended with a series of questions. To me those questions implied that somehow we need to choose between on flavor or another. I think that is a false choice, when both match flavors can be offered at the same time. Why ask match directors to put on a particular type of match? Why not have the entire Baskin Robins?

[TonytheTiger]

What about the avocado ice cream? The local vanilla and chocolate vendors are still selling out but most of the guys I eat with (and myself) have been boycotting the avocado stand lately, mostly because none of us are named Timmy. If it was all that was available I might dabble in it but the more conventional flavors keep me satisfied.

[Stlhead]

If 80% or the shooters want long range included, and 10% don't care, and 10% want only 50 yards or less. Do you not think that should have some weight in the mind of the folks putting on the matches? Again I go with a question and not a statement, and those numbers are pulled out of my ass based on an entirely too small sample to be accurate, but I do think that we need to choose. What sort of matches are we going to support with our entry fees, and more importantly with our vacation time and our volunteer efforts? In just the short time that I have been involved with 3gun it has changed considerably, and it continues to evolve, like most things change is nearly constant. Discussions on this forum have effected the evolution of the sport, and will continue to do so. Baskin Robins has 31 flavors as an advertising gimmick, only a few of those really sell well, why should we waste our valuable resources supporting matches that don't offer the experience we enjoy most. Yes, some ranges can't support a decent match, and they will have to make do for the local matches with less range. But the main focus of this thread is not local matches, it is about major matches, the ones that require travel, planning, time off work, and dedicated volunteers. I should have been more clear.

[kurtm]

Outside of just a handful of heavy metal guys there are NO RIFLES IN OR SPORT!!!!! Plenty of dinky little carbines who's utility at long range is more than questionable, but damn few rifles. I would say YES we need more that 60 yard RIFLE shots, but who really cares about a carbine.

[Lead-Head]

I am misunderstanding this whole thread. Is the question: do we need to be shooting our rifles at ranges longer than 60 yards?

When I first read it I thought it had to be a typo and was supposed to be 600 yards.

[kurtm]

A chip shot for a RIFLEMAN with a REAL RIFLE!!!

[Langenator]

Outside of just a handful of heavy metal guys there are NO RIFLES IN OR SPORT!!!!! Plenty of dinky little carbines who's utility at long range is more than questionable, but damn few rifles. I would say YES we need more that 60 yard RIFLE shots, but who really cares about a carbine.

Utility might be questioned.

Accuracy at range? Up to 600 yards? Not really. Just ask the blokes on the line at Camp Perry.

[Stlhead]

So shall we use these rifles and carbines to engage targets beyond pistol range? Or is there no longer a willingness to discover our inner rifleman?

[Doug H.]

Outside of just a handful of heavy metal guys there are NO RIFLES IN OR SPORT!!!!! Plenty of dinky little carbines who's utility at long range is more than questionable, but damn few rifles. I would say YES we need more that 60 yard RIFLE shots, but who really cares about a carbine.

So is my 20" JP a rifle or a carbine? How about SPRs with 18" barrels? Does it really matter? 600 yards for a full size silhouette is a bit long but doable by average guys that can shoot and know their dope. 350 seems to be the point that the majority can live with based on after action questionnaires from the NWMGC and anecdotal feed back from shooters.

Doug

[kurtm]

Yes, Doug, they are carbines due to the caliber. Armalite ALWAYS billed the M-16 as a light weight military carbine; the original had a 20" barrel and it was considered a carbine. Now carry on with the thread.

[Vlad]

Kurt, the .58 caliber Burnside carbine will like a talk with you and your puny 30 cal

I think historically carbine had more to do with barrel length then caliber, usually referring to a cavalry purposed shorter barrel length then the full length rifles.

[kurtm]

Yes, historically it was a shorter barreled rifle, but like I said, Armalite always billed their firearm a carbine, and the ammunition was carbine ammo.

Now where in any of this did I say what caliber I used? Where did I say MY 30 cal? Matter of fact outside of mentioning heavy metal...I didn't mention a single caliber. But if we are going to talk about RIFLE SHOTS I figured we should be talking about...well....RIFLES.

Now Perhaps a Dahlgrin Naval rifle would like to have a word with your miniscule 58 caliber Burnside...or perhaps a much smaller 20mm Lahti anti tank rifle would like to chat.

[Moltke]

If the rifle shooting is only going to be 50-60 yards then everyone can just start using red dots and dump their $1-2k 6x scopes

Irons divisions should see a bump up in participation hmmmm?

[Stlhead]

My rifles only seem to say two things, "pop" or "BANG".

[kurtm]

If it says "pop" you need more powder.

If it says "bang" you need to put on some soft music, open up some wine and......uh......oh.......wrong thread, sorry.

[Langenator]

Yes, historically it was a shorter barreled rifle, but like I said, Armalite always billed their firearm a carbine, and the ammunition was carbine ammo.

Now where in any of this did I say what caliber I used? Where did I say MY 30 cal? Matter of fact outside of mentioning heavy metal...I didn't mention a single caliber. But if we are going to talk about RIFLE SHOTS I figured we should be talking about...well....RIFLES.

Now Perhaps a Dahlgrin Naval rifle would like to have a word with your miniscule 58 caliber Burnside...or perhaps a much smaller 20mm Lahti anti tank rifle would like to chat.

Given the barrel lengths of the standard service rifles of the time (M-14, FAL) 20" was a shorter barrel.

[kurtm]

M-14 = 22" barrel length

FN-FAL = 21" barrel length (although a fairly common version had the 17.8" length)

I really doubt that 2" of barrel length made the M-16 a "carbine" compared to the M-14. The light weight bullet/ ammo, the almost 4.5 pounds lighter overall weight yes, but probably not the barrel length.

[Stlhead]

So if all .223 is carbine, is all .308 rifle?

[Rookie]

From Webster (the dictionary):

Full Definition of CARBINE

1

: a short-barreled lightweight firearm originally used by cavalry

2

: a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush

Probably is not "the" answer... but it does address some of the recent comments.

[Stlhead]

Keep your fancy books out of this discussion.

[T Bacus]

This thread is dumb. My eyeballs slapped my brain for making me read it.

[kurtm]

No all I said was that Armalite ALWAYS called it a carbine so any AR-15/M-16 varrient in 223 would be a carbine. Can you have a 223 rifle? Sure just not if it is an AR. Sure you can have a 308 carbine short barrel and all......BUT NOW YOU ARE ONCE AGAIN NOT TALKING ABOUT RIFLE SHOTS!!! You would be talking about CARBINE SHOTS!....Or major thread piracy Avast yee prepare to be boarded!

[Phil Dunlop]

Test as many practical skills as the ranges, imagination and match flow allow.

If it makes 150pf or more, bring it

[pinkycatcher]

Sounds like y'all need to shoot Fallen Bretheren. This year's longest was at 600 (and I smoked that stage and target). But they regularly have targets from 150-450 and a decent number of contact to 15 yard targets.