Passing through non scoring areas

[D.Hayden]

If 2 targets (no-shoots but that shouldn't be relevant) are placed edge to edge over another target, a bullet hits the non scoring area of these front targets and hits the target underneath in a scoring area... does the shooter get that score? I'd just never seen this before. I'm thinking yes, but it's unique enough I wanted to make sure. The RO on the stage said no

9.1.5.1.1 is the closet thing I can find

thanks in advance.. Dave

[motosapiens]

I say yes. the non-scoring border is like a target stick, it essentially doesn't exist except as a convenience.

edit: if you think about it, it's pretty obvious. Everyone accepts that a hit on a no-shoot that touches the perf counts on whatever target is next-to/behind it.

Edited August 26, 2015 by motosapiens

[Balakay]

We had a similar occurrence at a recent local match. Scored as a hit to the target underneath. Whether right or wrong, the SO treated the non-scoring area of the front targets like target sticks in 9.1.7---

9.1.7 Target sticks are neither Hard Cover nor Soft Cover. Shots which have passed wholly or partially through target sticks and which hit a paper or metal target will count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

[D.Hayden]

I say yes. the non-scoring border is like a target stick, it essentially doesn't exist except as a convenience.

edit: if you think about it, it's pretty obvious. Everyone accepts that a hit on a no-shoot that touches the perf counts on whatever target is next-to/behind it.

That's the way I take it too, this is just 2 at the same time.. the RO figured you couldn't even see the scoring target so it didn't count.

Edited August 26, 2015 by D.Hayden

[Sarge]

RO should have looked at it as the part outside the perfs doesn't exist. Not what's underneath

[PatJones]

And if the shot breaks the perf you can score on both targets, just like a no shoot.

[JAFO]

And if the shot breaks touches the perf you can score on both targets, just like a no shoot.

Fixed it for you.

It counts. If they didn't want it to count, the No-shoots should have been overlapped completely, or they should have added a hardcover stripe underneath the non-scoring borders.

[PatJones]

And if the shot breaks touches the perf you can score on both targets, just like a no shoot.

Fixed it for you.

It counts. If they didn't want it to count, the No-shoots should have been overlapped completely, or they should have added a hardcover stripe underneath the non-scoring borders.

Yup, my bad. It's easy to forget that the perf has dimension and you only need to touch the perf to count the score on the other side.

[Poppa Bear]

The overlay needs to touch. Many times the grease ring is smaller than the actual bullet diameter.

The target underneath is scored for score or penalty as long as the face target does NOT have a full diameter hit INSIDE the perf.

[Poppa Bear]

The only time the hit would not count would be if the no shoots were edge to edge. Then it is possible for the perfect shot to hit outside of each perf so that the shooter does not get a penalty but because the area under the no shoots would be considered unavailable they would not get a scoring hit out of it either. It would be considered a full diameter hard cover hit.

[George Jones]

The only time the hit would not count would be if the no shoots were edge to edge. Then it is possible for the perfect shot to hit outside of each perf so that the shooter does not get a penalty but because the area under the no shoots would be considered unavailable they would not get a scoring hit out of it either. It would be considered a full diameter hard cover hit.

Perhaps I am misreading this.

Edge to edge no-shoots with a bullet striking right in the middle would score whatever is under the no-shoot non-scoring border (and probably both no-shoots). That type of no-shoot array is not a good idea..

[Sarge]

The only time the hit would not count would be if the no shoots were edge to edge. Then it is possible for the perfect shot to hit outside of each perf so that the shooter does not get a penalty but because the area under the no shoots would be considered unavailable they would not get a scoring hit out of it either. It would be considered a full diameter hard cover hit.

Perhaps I am misreading this.

Edge to edge no-shoots with a bullet striking right in the middle would score whatever is under the no-shoot non-scoring border (and probably both no-shoots). That type of no-shoot array is not a good idea..

This is correct and has already been said as well. Outside of the perfs does not exist so whatever is beneath does exist

[Poppa Bear]

The only time the hit would not count would be if the no shoots were edge to edge. Then it is possible for the perfect shot to hit outside of each perf so that the shooter does not get a penalty but because the area under the no shoots would be considered unavailable they would not get a scoring hit out of it either. It would be considered a full diameter hard cover hit.

Perhaps I am misreading this.

Edge to edge no-shoots with a bullet striking right in the middle would score whatever is under the no-shoot non-scoring border (and probably both no-shoots). That type of no-shoot array is not a good idea..

You are of course correct George. My brain did not fully engage when I wrote that. It is bad design because any area within a full diameter of the outer edge of the perf would be considered a scoring area no matter what the designer intended.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Poppa Bear

[High Lord Gomer]

Rather than the non-scoring edges touching if they instead aligned the perforations completely then whatever portion of the bullet that was not stopped by the target on the left would have been stopped by the target on the right and the underlying target would not be accessible.

[yasko]

The only time the hit would not count would be if the no shoots were edge to edge. Then it is possible for the perfect shot to hit outside of each perf so that the shooter does not get a penalty but because the area under the no shoots would be considered unavailable they would not get a scoring hit out of it either. It would be considered a full diameter hard cover hit.

Perhaps I am misreading this.

Edge to edge no-shoots with a bullet striking right in the middle would score whatever is under the no-shoot non-scoring border (and probably both no-shoots). That type of no-shoot array is not a good idea..

Pardon my ignorance.... point of clarification.... in a stroke of luck, a perfect shot touched 2 no shoot targets, would the shooter be penalized for 2 no-shoots from a single shot? i wonder how big is the target behind to need 2 no-shoots to cover it?

A converse of this would be.... i once saw an array arranged in a N-S-E-W configuration and there were overlapping borders on the lower C and D areas. A shooter missed a shot in 1 of the targets but on the adjacent target, it broke the perf and touched the scoring area where a shot was missed. Question is, would a single shot earn a score for both targets?

Edited August 29, 2015 by yasko

[Sarge]

The only time the hit would not count would be if the no shoots were edge to edge. Then it is possible for the perfect shot to hit outside of each perf so that the shooter does not get a penalty but because the area under the no shoots would be considered unavailable they would not get a scoring hit out of it either. It would be considered a full diameter hard cover hit.

Perhaps I am misreading this.

Edge to edge no-shoots with a bullet striking right in the middle would score whatever is under the no-shoot non-scoring border (and probably both no-shoots). That type of no-shoot array is not a good idea..

Pardon my ignorance.... point of clarification.... in a stroke of luck, a perfect shot touched 2 no shoot targets, would the shooter be penalized for 2 no-shoots from a single shot? Yes.

A converse of this would be.... i once saw an array arranged in a N-S-E-W configuration and there were overlapping borders on the lower C and D areas. A shooter missed a shot in 1 of the targets but on the adjacent target, it broke touched the perf and touched the scoring area where a shot was missed. Question is, would a single shot earn a score for both targets? Very poor target placement but yes.

[yasko]

The only time the hit would not count would be if the no shoots were edge to edge. Then it is possible for the perfect shot to hit outside of each perf so that the shooter does not get a penalty but because the area under the no shoots would be considered unavailable they would not get a scoring hit out of it either. It would be considered a full diameter hard cover hit.

Perhaps I am misreading this.

Edge to edge no-shoots with a bullet striking right in the middle would score whatever is under the no-shoot non-scoring border (and probably both no-shoots). That type of no-shoot array is not a good idea..

Pardon my ignorance.... point of clarification.... in a stroke of luck, a perfect shot touched 2 no shoot targets, would the shooter be penalized for 2 no-shoots from a single shot? Yes.

A converse of this would be.... i once saw an array arranged in a N-S-E-W configuration and there were overlapping borders on the lower C and D areas. A shooter missed a shot in 1 of the targets but on the adjacent target, it broke touched the perf and touched the scoring area where a shot was missed. Question is, would a single shot earn a score for both targets? Very poor target placement but yes.

Thanks for clarification, Sarge!