CrashDodson Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) I recently took the SO prequalification test and ran into a question I am confused about. Can someone explain the difference in Oval and keyhole hits? 4.8. Bullet Holes4.8.1. Oval or elongated bullet holes made in a target that exceed two bullet diameters do not count for score. This situation normally occurs for moving targets fired upon at extreme angles, or targets where the shooter is moving.4.8.2. The elongated bullet hole rule does not include keyhole bullet holes (a keyhole bullet hole is created by a bullet which tumbles out of the firearm barrel and appears to have gone through the target sideways,) which count for score if they were made without interference from another object. Oval holes do not count, they occur on shots from extreme angles or where shooter is moving. Keyhole is created when it goes through the target sideways (which does count). If the bullet was tumbling out of the firearm and impacts the target at an angle, not exactly flat, wouldn't that create a oval hole? Were if the bullet hit the target a micro second later it would be a keyhole? Edited August 26, 2015 by CrashDodson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Welcome to the wonderful word of IDPA rules. They are not consistent or clear. It all comes down to the opinion of the SO at the time. Considering that that IDPA has lost a large percentage of their experienced SO and a bunch of new ones are running things... you get what you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 And if the SO likes you or not. What kind of rulebook would repeatedly use the word, "suggests"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racknrider Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 The elongated holes that I have seen happened on drop turners and there is usually a bunching of cardboard at one end of the hole. I believe the idea is that an extreme angle shot would be a glancing blow and would not perform against an "actual threat" whereas a full on keyhole would still penetrate and cause damage. This would be against actual targets. Anything can kill a piece of cardboard. Now what if you had an extreme angle shot from a bullet that keyholed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robport Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Unfortunately, I believe I can explain it...but I'm disavowing any direct knowledge due to my inexperience. Most of them don't actually occur when the shooter is moving, but when the target is moving, like a falling target or a drop turner. I believe the motivation is you don't want to get credit for when the target is beyond it's planned presentation to the shooter. At it's theoretical limit, you could be cutting a target in half like a playing card trick shot. I don't believe shooters usually engage targets from near 90 degrees from their front to cause this to happen while moving. I guess it's possible, but I would be afraid of breaking the 180. You have to be pretty far to the side to see an oval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashDodson Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 Thanks for the responses, I dont think we have any drop turners at our range, we do have a few "swingers". So when looking at these targets you would be looking at the "bunched up" cardboard as a glancing shot that would not get scored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewColonial Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 When in doubt, score goes to the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
safeactionjackson Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 ^this! Welcome to the wonderful word of IDPA rules. They are not consistent or clear. It all comes down to the opinion of the SO at the time. Considering that that IDPA has lost a large percentage of their experienced SO and a bunch of new ones are running things... you get what you get. Less than helpful and or productive, we get it.... you dislike or are angry with IDPA, IDPA rules, and or IDPA SO's. ~g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 How about starting a monthly newsletter. Email it to all members and clubs, and highlight an important rule each month. They need to continue education and remind people of things. The benefit of doubt going to the shooter seems nice, but it doesn't work. I've seen 15 yrs of cover calls. It's a joke. I watch shooters break cover every match, and hear nothing. Give a guy an even break. No friend or buddy system. Call it by the book. Then it's fair for all. That's why the book needs to be crystal clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 The elongated holes that I have seen happened on drop turners and there is usually a bunching of cardboard at one end of the hole. I believe the idea is that an extreme angle shot would be a glancing blow and would not perform against an "actual threat" whereas a full on keyhole would still penetrate and cause damage. This would be against actual targets. Anything can kill a piece of cardboard. Now what if you had an extreme angle shot from a bullet that keyholed? How many "actual threats" disappear when they turn sideways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robport Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Any that are 1/8" thick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racknrider Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 The elongated holes that I have seen happened on drop turners and there is usually a bunching of cardboard at one end of the hole. I believe the idea is that an extreme angle shot would be a glancing blow and would not perform against an "actual threat" whereas a full on keyhole would still penetrate and cause damage. This would be against actual targets. Anything can kill a piece of cardboard. Now what if you had an extreme angle shot from a bullet that keyholed? How many "actual threats" disappear when they turn sideways? If an "actual threat" turned sideways and your bullet skimmed off its chest it would not be a very effective shot would it? There's no way to put one in the armpit of a 1/8" piece of cardboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 In a bygone day, it was not unknown to trim a target to represent a sideways threat. I don't know the status of that in the present rules, but I have not seen it in a long time. Too much attention is given to petty crap like the definition of "oval." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racknrider Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 In a bygone day, it was not unknown to trim a target to represent a sideways threat. I don't know the status of that in the present rules, but I have not seen it in a long time. Too much attention is given to petty crap like the definition of "oval." Only on Internet forums. At the match we just shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 True. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Halley Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Withdrawn. Edited September 9, 2015 by Forrest Halley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Who determines the difference between a "tumbling bullet" and an "oval hole"? As well, who determines if that hole is more than two caliber diameter? I've seen very few SOs... including the eight years I spent as one... who have calipers with them. And, overlays are prohibited. OK... according to the way the rules are written a shooter with a 9mm and a .355 nominal bullet diameter (some might be .356 or even .357) makes a hole in the target that isn't a nice round hole. It's bigger. With a .355 bullet that hole, according to the rules, could be .71 inches and be legal. If it's .72 it's not. OK... measure that. A difference, by Rule Book, of just .002 inch means the difference between a legal hit and a non-legal hit. OK... how do you measure that? Making a Rule without providing the means to properly enforce it makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ES13Raven Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 As an SO, I understand it like this: If it is a standard front-ish facing target - keyhole. If it is a turning target, or shot at an extreme angle - oval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V2plus25 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 As an SO, I understand it like this: If it is a standard front-ish facing target - keyhole. If it is a turning target, or shot at an extreme angle - oval. +1 with the caveat of anything being in doubt going towards the shooter unless it's the guy in your division beating you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Haven seen a number of holes from tumbling bullets and high angle hits its very clear which is which for the vast majorty of time (very ragged holes vs smooth ovals). Add in the context of the traget and presentation mode (drop turner vs face-on) it's really hard to confuse the two. The only potetnally confusing situation is a good hit with a tumbling bullet on a drop turner. If you can't honestly tell its oval then the shooter gets the benifit of the doubt. FWIW in setting up or even just breifing a stage you should see where high angle hits (if any) are possible. You should be able to watch for said questionable hits, warn shooters, or adjust the stage to prevent them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 All of this is 'subjective opinion'. How do you accurately measure an oversized hole to determine if it is over twice bullet diameter.... the difference with a .356 plated 9mm bullet between .71 (legal) and .72 (not legal)? And, if you take the target presentation into consideration regarding hole diameter... or elongation... where in the Rule Book does it say to do that? It seems that Tribal Rules are emerging in some areas and the Rule Book re-write promised to eliminate them. Fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ES13Raven Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 All of this is 'subjective opinion'. How do you accurately measure an oversized hole to determine if it is over twice bullet diameter.... the difference with a .356 plated 9mm bullet between .71 (legal) and .72 (not legal)? And, if you take the target presentation into consideration regarding hole diameter... or elongation... where in the Rule Book does it say to do that? You don't. If the SO has to take more than 3 seconds to verify - the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 That's what the rule book says. Would be nice to see it in practice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ES13Raven Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) That's what the rule book says. Would be nice to see it in practice Shooters should know the Rule Book and not be afraid to speak up. Be polite but firm. At a Tier-3 match, I saw an SO walk closer to a target and he took a few seconds to look at a hit that was very close to a -0. The shooter said "If you have to take this long to look, you have to give me the benefit of the doubt." The SO immediately agreed and the shooter got the better score. Edited October 16, 2015 by ES13Raven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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