Should I get into Limited Class USPSA?

[bafsu92]

I own a couple STI's and a CZ TS 40 and have had no problems using reman ammo from Everglades Ammo or Precision One (bought through bangitammo.com) in any of them. Depending on quantity you're looking low .20's per rd if you're really set on not reloading. I'd personally go with the CZ TS, fewer issues, especially with mags. All that being said I shoot more production than anything.

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Edited July 29, 2015 by bafsu92

[cnote]

You never stated how many rounds per month you plan on shooting between match and practice. Are u the member of a range where you have access to draw from a holster and set up practice sessions etc. This will make a difference as to round count. This whole thing gets addicting and TIME consuming. Round count is the determination for reloading. It's nice to have a "muscle car" to drive on Sunday's . Expensive to drive it daily hundreds of miles (rounds)

In addition , whatever choice u make, you could sell the dillon or gun and recoup some cost relatively easily. Notice I said dillon

Edited July 29, 2015 by cnote

[Gooldylocks]

Not sure why no one else has brought it up, but the Tanfoglio Limited in .40 makes a really nice limited gun.

Maybe because it's basically like a TS, only with less aftermarket support and a worse trigger? [emoji48]

I'm just kidding of course, all the aftermarket parts that are really needed are available and the Limiteds do make pretty cool limited guns.

OP, yes I do mean a CZ 75 TS. It is of note that while they call it a "75 Tactical sports" it does not share a lot with its smaller brethren. Larger frame optimized for 40 caliber, no magazine compatability with the small frame guns (without special grips), no double action.

[kneelingatlas]

"Tuning" mags means in the 2011 world you can't just spend $100/mag, load them and shoot, you have to "tune" them to work reliability.

TS mags are the best in the game, buy the mags, springs, followers and pads from CZ Custom and they hold 21+1 and run all day long.

Do the same with 2011 mags and you might get 19+1 reliably, 20+1 most of the time and 21+1 half the time if you keep a rabbit's foot in your pocket!

[RJH]

IDK about a gun that takes all day long to fire 21+1.

[Gooldylocks]

"Tuning" mags generally entails adjusting feed-lip angles and dimensions, polishing tubes, and sometimes messing with followers. Generally done by gunsmith types, though I think dawson sells a tuning kit.

Something you won't have to worry about at all with a CZ. [emoji317]

[racingjoe27]

This whole thing gets addicting and TIME consuming.

And that's why I said don't forget your new wife!

Edited July 30, 2015 by racingjoe27

[Thaunk]

You never stated how many rounds per month you plan on shooting between match and practice. Are u the member of a range where you have access to draw from a holster and set up practice sessions etc. This will make a difference as to round count. This whole thing gets addicting and TIME consuming. Round count is the determination for reloading. It's nice to have a "muscle car" to drive on Sunday's . Expensive to drive it daily hundreds of miles (rounds)

In addition , whatever choice u make, you could sell the dillon or gun and recoup some cost relatively easily. Notice I said dillon

Matches shoot like 120 rounds and like 90 I think for a qualifier which only happens once a year. USPSA is shot once a month locally. Same with IDPA though this gun may not qualify in IDPA anyhow. I'm not a member of the range where the competition takes place because it's about 45 minutes away. I'll shoot about 100 rounds per week in practice. So say I practice 40 weeks a year and shoot 6 matches I'll use a little under 5k rounds a year. I've had my eyes in the Dillion and I agree they don't seem to lose a lot of value.

Finickiness doesn't really intimidate me as long as I have support. I've driven vintage race cars and they're also finicky to say the least. What's made it doable is having support in place to manage issues. I'm m mostly concerned with how much fun it'd be. Can I purchase extra magazines for instance from STI or SVI that would be tuned to the gun? Would that be an advantage of using somebody like Brazos or Akai? SVI on their FAQ states their turn around is 12 to 15 months. Anybody know if that's standard for the industry?

I looked up CZ TS on gun broker and the pricing is attractive as compared to the STI etc. I found one in the classified section and his price is way cheaper. He's just done things to it and I'm not sure if they're useful upgrades because of a lack of knowledge on my part. In part that's why I like the STI as it's presented as complete, though that doesn't seem to be the case in practice.

[leas327]

I have a biased opinion because I am a TS limited guy...but I think the TS is the best value in the limited game.

You can tune a 2011 trigger to be better, but not by anything meaningful in a USPSA match. Custom guns will be fit a little tighter, but from what I have seen at 50 yards, the TS won't be what holds you back. The other drawback is there is basically two places for parts, CZ custom and CZ UB. Not as much fun to customize your gun in a pretty much anything goes division.

The advantages are... they reliably feed factory length ammo and all my extended mags are reliable 21 reloadable with no extra "tuning". I even have a 22 non reloadable mag that I can make work if 23 is a huge advantage. It's a heavy gun with a light trigger from the factory. Guys throw a grand at their 2011 to put a steel grip on it. The TS is all steel already. You want it heavier than that, add brass grips and magwell.

You can buy a TS and a Dillon for Custom 2011 money. But nobody wants to handle your practically in the safe area and everyone has a Dillon.

Edited July 30, 2015 by leas327

[Firefight5243]

I have my new limited gun STI executive and love it. I shot production before and enjoyed it, but frustrated with the reloads. Limited took that away but as with everything it has its own newances. But a limited gun can be just about any of the ones out there that you will see in production but as Reshoot said very few are off the shelf guns.

I have had my STI for couple months and already have the list of parts that I want to replace.... It's like golf, you may have a set that will work but this new driver that just came out and only costs 299.99 will clearly give me further more accurate drives.... Plus I get 1% back with the Chase card ( so practically on sale ) lol.

Just have fun shoot and have a good time.

What parts are you planning to replace and why if you don't mind sharing?

First I have to say I love the gun! No feed problems, accurate , solid... Clear differance between it and all my other guns. I'm looking at new springs and followers for the mags, new guide rod and recoil spring, and looking at new mag release. Nothing that is a have to replace but.... Might as well!

Also on the finicky comment, I have had no problems with factory ammo, I shoot blazer mostly, but have had no problems what so ever. One day I may get into reloading but for me time and money aren't on my side to start reloading.

[Iggy42]

If I was playing only pistol games I would be all about a Tanfoglio Limited or a CZ TS (whatever feels more comfortable to you, however there are ways to adjust either more to your liking).

However if your are planning on branching into 3-gun/2-gun IMO an STI platform is a better choice. I came to this conclusion after many months of research when I was looking to move on from a tupperware gun. The biggest failing I found for Tanfoglio (and to an extent CZ - although for CZ it is improving) was the lack of aftermarket support. Henning is basically it in the US for Tanfoglio parts, and through him Ben Stoeger and others get their stuff. If Henning is out, so are they. You might be able to acquire some things from Eric Graufel, but then you are dealing with international shipping. Given the availability of parts for the STI/SVI platform, should you need to replace a part it can be had fairly easily and quickly. Also in the various multi-gun disciplines you often deal with an empty chamber pistol, and I have see more than a few people get caught by the "half" slide that Tans/CZs have. Its a non-issue in pure pistol games, but can cause a hang up in multi-gun.

While reloading will help, if you are like me and just plain don't have the space to set up a press there are plenty of options out there for STI ammo. Plus with the newer followers I have met more and more people that are successfully running standard over the counter ammo. There are enough suppliers of "Gamer" ammo that I feel the you have to reload requirement for STI doesn't really apply anymore. Being newer to the sport I would learning the game and having fun are more important than needing to push every scrap of performance from your gear. If you are trying to move up from an A shooter to a M or GM sure, but even then I know several of those guys that are running the commercial "Gamer" ammo.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Iggy42

[Thaunk]

I have my new limited gun STI executive and love it. I shot production before and enjoyed it, but frustrated with the reloads. Limited took that away but as with everything it has its own newances. But a limited gun can be just about any of the ones out there that you will see in production but as Reshoot said very few are off the shelf guns.

I have had my STI for couple months and already have the list of parts that I want to replace.... It's like golf, you may have a set that will work but this new driver that just came out and only costs 299.99 will clearly give me further more accurate drives.... Plus I get 1% back with the Chase card ( so practically on sale ) lol.

Just have fun shoot and have a good time.

What parts are you planning to replace and why if you don't mind sharing?

First I have to say I love the gun! No feed problems, accurate , solid... Clear differance between it and all my other guns. I'm looking at new springs and followers for the mags, new guide rod and recoil spring, and looking at new mag release. Nothing that is a have to replace but.... Might as well!

Also on the finicky comment, I have had no problems with factory ammo, I shoot blazer mostly, but have had no problems what so ever. One day I may get into reloading but for me time and money aren't on my side to start reloading.

Where are you finding those parts? Are you having them custom made?

[EdwardBlake]

I just moved into L10 this year with a DVC. I suggest you stay in production if not reloading. You have other costs to factor in. My belt cost me over $450 with the holster ($200) and mag holders. Then factor in extra magazines at roughly $100 each.

[Thaunk]

Holster and magazines are essentially one time costs. Granted that's more expensive than my current setup. Did you use Safariland or somebody else?

[brisix]

The aftermarket support on CZ is not a valid reason to not buy a CZ. For one unlike a 2011 you do not need your own personal gunsmith to keep the pistol running. The TS is does not need that level of care. Plus we now have three great companies supporting CZs, CZ Custom, Cajun Gunworks and Automatic Accuracy. If you do need a part it is very easy to get the part you need from one of those three companies or CZ-USA. There are only two parts that typically break, the trigger return spring and the slide stop. Both are very easy to replace and low cost. If you do need a gunsmith all three companies are top notch. No need to worry about aftermarket support the CZ community has you covered.

[Thaunk]

All that means is now I want to add more guns to my collection, because if 1 Limited class gun is good, 3 is probably way cooler.

[Gooldylocks]

In addition , whatever choice u make, you could sell the dillon or gun and recoup some cost relatively easily. Notice I said dillon

Matches shoot like 120 rounds and like 90 I think for a qualifier which only happens once a year. USPSA is shot once a month locally. Same with IDPA though this gun may not qualify in IDPA anyhow. I'm not a member of the range where the competition takes place because it's about 45 minutes away. I'll shoot about 100 rounds per week in practice. So say I practice 40 weeks a year and shoot 6 matches I'll use a little under 5k rounds a year. I've had my eyes in the Dillion and I agree they don't seem to lose a lot of value....

I looked up CZ TS on gun broker and the pricing is attractive as compared to the STI etc. I found one in the classified section and his price is way cheaper. He's just done things to it and I'm not sure if they're useful upgrades because of a lack of knowledge on my part. In part that's why I like the STI as it's presented as complete, though that doesn't seem to be the case in practice.

So if you plan to shoot ~5000 rounds a year your initial investment in a dillon will have already paid for itself in ammo cost inside one year. I think if you have the space, you should get one.

I wouldn't consider an STI to be a "complete" ready to run gun. Like has been mentioned they are getting better about feeding factory ammo, and general reliability is getting better, but there are still lots of things that people change on factory guns. And they only come with one magazine, that is essentially useless in USPSA (IPSC length 126mm).

A TS straight out of the box could go for a change in grips, a larger magwell, and a fiber optic front sight. Done. The only one of those that I bought straight away was a fiber optic front, and I would consider the rest of it all fluff.

I have shot a TS with a nice trigger job and one of the aluminum flat triggers, and honestly I like the factory trigger better because it has the nub on the bottom for an index, so my finger always ends up in the same spot. The minor gain in trigger feel was outweighed by the index point in my book. Compared to nearly everyone who gets a trigger job done on their factory STI guns.

I'm not anti STI, I just don't see why people spend so much money when one of the best limited guns out there can be had for half the money.

[Thaunk]

I'm going to take another hard look at the TS. I'm honestly just not that familiar with them and the DVC looks awesome, which to the uninitiated such as myself sells guns. The Brazos tuned magazines are $150 each, so I could easily wind up with another $1,000 in magazines. I don't know, I'll be crying uncle somewhere along that line. As an aside, would there be a downside to take my Glock 34 and trying to shoot 9mm major in limited? I think I've read that's a thing.

[Gooldylocks]

I'm going to take another hard look at the TS. I'm honestly just not that familiar with them and the DVC looks awesome, which to the uninitiated such as myself sells guns. The Brazos tuned magazines are $150 each, so I could easily wind up with another $1,000 in magazines. I don't know, I'll be crying uncle somewhere along that line. As an aside, would there be a downside to take my Glock 34 and trying to shoot 9mm major in limited? I think I've read that's a thing.

You can't shoot 9 major for limited division, 40 caliber or larger, or 357 sig. Sig is the only exception because basically all factory loads make major. However I personally know a few dudes that fair pretty well shooting minor. So that is a potential choice.

The DVC looks dope, there is no denying that. But I don't think my TS is a slouch in the prettiness department either.

[Iggy42]

I'm going to take another hard look at the TS. I'm honestly just not that familiar with them and the DVC looks awesome, which to the uninitiated such as myself sells guns. The Brazos tuned magazines are $150 each, so I could easily wind up with another $1,000 in magazines. I don't know, I'll be crying uncle somewhere along that line. As an aside, would there be a downside to take my Glock 34 and trying to shoot 9mm major in limited? I think I've read that's a thing.

9mm major is in option for Open, but for Limited the minimum caliber for Major is .40. So basically if your running a 9mm in Limited you are minor no matter what.

The trick to 2011s is that once you have a setup that is running - be it that you bought it that way or you tweaked until it is - DON"T TOUCH IT!! I hear often that you need to be good friends with a gunsmith if you want to run a 2011, and sorry its just not true. Given that 2011 are out on the ragged edge of performance many people can't resist the temptation to try to get that extra bit out of their gear. Often times this means they step over of the edge and have lots of issues. I have met and known lots of people that run their 2011s without problems because they don't mess with them.

As a guy who just dropped 4k on a CK limited + mags I admit I wondering if I should have gone the Tanfo route instead. I chose the 2011 for all the reasons people say they are the best, but for some reason the Tanfoglios really tug at my heartstrings.

[Garmil]

If you can afford the Sti then get it, if you settle for your second choice (TS) based on price you will eventually sell it (at a loss) and spend the money on the Sti anyway at least I did.

I started with a ts , now have a custom sti. I can't say it helped my shooting any. they are both good enough that your skills will be the only thing holding you back.

[kneelingatlas]

I chose the 2011 for all the reasons people say they are the best, but for some reason the Tanfoglios really tug at my heartstrings.

I have three 2011s and I prefer the Tanfo

[Iggy42]

I chose the 2011 for all the reasons people say they are the best, but for some reason the Tanfoglios really tug at my heartstrings.

I have three 2011s and I prefer the Tanfo

Once I get my 2011 from the builder I will probably sell my old 3 gun rifle and XDm that I run in Limited/3-gun to fund a Tanfo project just to see which of the two I prefer.

[RevoWood123]

Honestly, a large part of it is I've got money to burn and want something cool. I've looked at various interesting, to me, revolvers, long guns, and pistols but thought I'd get the most utility out of a competition pistol.

The reloading issue is two fold. I don't have the space at home. I could possibly find space at the office, but that's a long shot. Secondly when I did my comparison of buying new versus buying components I didn't break even on .45 ACP. Maybe I was buying the wrong components, or buying them from the wrong place, or wrong time? If somebody can show me it's feasible I'll happily go that route. I had a spec'd out Dillion XL650 ready to go in my head.

Firstly, congratulations. this has been an interesting read because of the various people opinions of limited gun, I don't own one and have considered buying one myself and this has been very informative.

Secondly, definitely go revolver, they're way cooler anyway. I shoot revolvers a lot and I love them personally, whatever you decide to go with firearm wise, I hope you enjoy it.

Thirdly, it is way cheaper to reload than to not if you shoot enough. From your other post you said maybe 5k a year. You could almost break even in a year vs buying that much ammo retail. I bought ammo for a few years (38spl) and just shot local matches and practiced. I was paying about $300/1k. I can load it for $130/1k, and 38 spl brass can last a long while if it's quality. The only issue is the amount of time you may spend doing it. For me it's more about consistency for my ammo and the $$$ it saves. I could not afford to buy all the loaded ammo I shoot.

[Thaunk]

This has been an incredibly helpful conversation for me too and it stayed civil which I'm finding is a rarity on the internet these days. I could just be getting grumpy at 31.

I've only got two revolvers and only one of those likes me. I've got a 45 LC Beretta Stampede that has issues with the cylinder getting jammed when you point the gun down even slightly. It's been back to Beretta for repairs once. My second is a Rhino 6 inch in .357 because Togusa in Ghost in the Shell uses a Matiba and those are expensive and rare. If somebody made a grip for it that was a half inch longer I'd be all over it. That thing is accurate beyond belief and gets quite a few looks at the range.

I think reloading is happening. That seems to be a general consensus. I've got about 2 hours a week to put into it which should give me plenty of ammo. The problem I have is I'm trying to talk myself out of a STI 2011 from Brazos so that this makes a reasonable amount of economic sense. If I don't, I'm into Limited for almost $5,000. Which isn't beyond my ability to pay, it just makes me really consider if this is what I want to do. I've talked with Brazos, who was incredibly helpful and pleasant, as well as Akai, who I'd like to know I'm normally a much better conversationalist than what you guys saw on the phone. I've left a message for the CZ Custom guys and look forward to that conversation. I've shot one EAA Witness and didn't hate nor love it. But it was only a single experience for an hour at a range. I'm not sure that's fair to judge. I've narrowed it down to the "balls out option" meaning a HP Edge from Brazos and all the reloading equipment I can stand and the more "fun on a budget" option of a CZ or Tanfoglio with the reloading equipment. Who sells the bits and pieces to make the Tanfoglio good in Limited? Is the EAA Witness Limited the right place to start? Akai is out mainly due to price as is Cameron. So at least in that sense, progress.