CrusaderUSA Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Ok, after a few months of research and shooting my first few matches, I'm ready to relegate my 16" heavy barrel AR back to general range duty, and build a new upper for 2-gun, 3-gun, and DMR match use. I'm going to use the bolt carrier group, BCM charging handle, and Miculek brake off of this rifle, so that is why those parts are not mentioned below. So here is what I feel pretty sure about: - BCM assembled upper receiver - Midwest Industries 15" Gen II SS Keymod Rail - Spikes Gas Tube, Rifle-length, Melonite coated And here's where I am still undecided: - Midwest Industries low-pro gas block (non-adj.) OR - SLR Rifleworks Sentry 7 adjustable gas block - (will this fit under the MI rail? I may start with the non-adj brake and see if I want to monkey with adjusting the gas. I'm going to shoot more than one load with this rifle given it'll be used in DMR and 2-gun, so having to switch settings for each load is a factor as well.) The barrel is where I keep bouncing around: - Nordic Components 18" .223 Wylde Competition barrel - MEGA Arms 18" 5.56 SPR Match barrel - Faxon 18" 5.56 Heavy Fluted barrel And what other barrels might I be overlooking? I want the barrel to be 18", under $270, not have a long wait time, be under 40 oz, have rifle-length gas, shoot well with 55 grain bullets and hold 1 MOA 69 - 77 gr match rounds (it'll be used out to 600 yards, so this is very important). Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchinCamaro Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The SLR is teeny-tiny. I've not tried the combination, but I would bet money that it would fit under there. Additionally, the SLR is easy to adjust so dinking around with it for different loads won't be an issue after you try it once or twice. Messing around with my Gen 1 Syrac is a pain in the ass in comparison, but in the grand scheme of things it's no big deal at all. Go .223 Wylde for the DMR aspect. If you're buying new, you might as well get the chamber that has the potential for greater accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrusaderUSA Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 The SLR is teeny-tiny. I've not tried the combination, but I would bet money that it would fit under there. Additionally, the SLR is easy to adjust so dinking around with it for different loads won't be an issue after you try it once or twice. Messing around with my Gen 1 Syrac is a pain in the ass in comparison, but in the grand scheme of things it's no big deal at all. Go .223 Wylde for the DMR aspect. If you're buying new, you might as well get the chamber that has the potential for greater accuracy. Thanks BC! I've read a lot of good stuff about the Sentry 7 gas block, both in terms of not having a set screw to lock it, and also having quarter turn adjustments that make it not such a pain to adjust. And good point on the .223 Wylde for the DMR matches. I'd been leaning toward the Nordic, and that is another aspect in its favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1094 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I would at least get a new bolt for the new barrel. (Not a BCG) The bolt face will wear and match the old barrel. Just my 2cents. Edited July 21, 2015 by usmc1094 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrusaderUSA Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 I would at least get a new bolt for the new barrel. (Not a BCG) The bolt face will wear and match the old barrel. Just my 2cents. I hadn't considered that. I guess I shouldn't spend hundreds on all the other parts and skimp on a $40 bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeor70 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 +1 on the MI SS gen 2. Just put one on mone and love it. You won't be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeor70 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 +1 on the MI SS gen 2. Just put one on mine and love it. You won't be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter115 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 With a full weight carrier and Nordic barrel (with it's slightly under-sized gas port) I'd just go with the MI fixed gas block and put that $100 you saved towards ammo and match fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrusaderUSA Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) I ordered the MI rail and the BCM upper receiver. The guys at my local shop are saying I should go with an intermediate-length gas system instead of the rifle length to alleviate the chance of having issues due to the longer gas dwell time in a rifle-length system. I know a LOT of people are recommending the rifle-length gas, but should I consider intermediate gas? Or maybe I should consider a 16" barrel? Edited July 22, 2015 by CrusaderUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I've got an 18" Nordic and a non-adjustable gas block and it works very well with the standard bolt carrier and bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrusaderUSA Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) I've got an 18" Nordic and a non-adjustable gas block and it works very well with the standard bolt carrier and bolt. Ok, so 18" and the Nordic barrel is still the way to go? I could also look at Black Hole in an 18" with intermediate gas... I'd have to wait a bit to get it, but I suppose I'm not in too big a rush. Edited July 23, 2015 by CrusaderUSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polymerfeelsweirdman Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Not that there is anything wrong with the bcm upper receiver, but you can get something decent for cheaper almost certainly. I also do not like how the MI rail attaches (though I like how they look) but that is just me. I'd probably get another rail just because of that since I am picky about this kind of stuff and there are so many good ones available for about the same price. I don't think the melonited gas tube does anything better but I am not sure if it is worse vs a traditional gas tube (maybe easier for deposits to happen? Who knows) so I'd just go with a traditional gas tube and save the $5 or whatever it is and buy a sandwich. I am not sure what one can say about barrels since there isn't much more than anecdotal information out there. As a result I'd probably just get one that has a good reputation and has a not too heavy profile and get that. Accuracy guarantee is thrown out there sometimes but I have never heard of anyone taking advantage of these. A new bolt is a good idea, they aren't even that expensive. I am not sure I buy in to the importance of the barrel and bolt deforming with each other and what not seeing as how it is standard practice to replace a bolt but keep a barrel after a certain number of rounds or in the event of something like a sheared lug. Something I've wanted to try based on reports from this site is the stretch 16 barrel, perhaps that is an option you might like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrusaderUSA Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 The Stretch 16 is a consideration, though with the July sale that Black Hole Weaponry has going, I think I'm starting to lean in that direction, though still not 100% decided between the rifle-length and mid-length gas system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 First it was between rifle and intermediate length, now it's between rifle and mid length? You gotta get your story straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Go with rifle length and I really like the Carbon Arms gas block as I think the way it's designed will prevent leakage better than most. You can get it with the gas tube already installed also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchinCamaro Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) The guys at my local shop are saying I should go with an intermediate-length gas system instead of the rifle length to alleviate the chance of having issues due to the longer gas dwell time in a rifle-length system. I know a LOT of people are recommending the rifle-length gas... Are your shop guys also comp shooters or "just" shop guys? My local shop is run by internet commandos- good dudes, but they're baffled that my rifle (which is basically the antithesis to all things milspec), runs 100% of the time. Increased dwell time is likely going to be a non-issue out of the box. You'll be surprised at how much you can turn down your gas on a rifle lenght system. They also reciprocate noticeably less violently than a carbine system. I don't think intermediate = compromise. Just go rifle as has been suggested by others, don't look back, and enjoy the benefits. I too questioned the reasoning behind spending money on an adjustable gas block before I tried one. Now I feel that they're basically an essential upgrade to a game gun. No other part (gas system length comes in a far second) gives you as much control over the recoil impulse of your system. Even though you're using a full-mass carrier now, you may go lightweight in the future. And even if you don't, you can fully tune your full-mass system to shoot as flat as possible. If you have the money and interest then try it out. You can always sell it easily- they retain their resale value for a reason! Edited July 23, 2015 by BitchinCamaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrusaderUSA Posted July 23, 2015 Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 The guys at my local shop are saying I should go with an intermediate-length gas system instead of the rifle length to alleviate the chance of having issues due to the longer gas dwell time in a rifle-length system. I know a LOT of people are recommending the rifle-length gas... Are your shop guys also comp shooters or "just" shop guys? My local shop is run by internet commandos- good dudes, but they're baffled that my rifle (which is basically the antithesis to all things milspec), runs 100% of the time. Increased dwell time is likely going to be a non-issue out of the box. You'll be surprised at how much you can turn down your gas on a rifle lenght system. They also reciprocate noticeably less violently than a carbine system. I don't think intermediate = compromise. Just go rifle as has been suggested by others, don't look back, and enjoy the benefits. I too questioned the reasoning behind spending money on an adjustable gas block before I tried one. Now I feel that they're basically an essential upgrade to a game gun. No other part (gas system length comes in a far second) gives you as much control over the recoil impulse of your system. Even though you're using a full-mass carrier now, you may go lightweight in the future. And even if you don't, you can fully tune your full-mass system to shoot as flat as possible. If you have the money and interest then try it out. You can always sell it easily- they retain their resale value for a reason! This is exactly the sort of guidance I was hoping for, thanks again BC! My shooting experience has been limited to 14.5" or 16" barrels with carbine or mid-length gas systems, so hearing real-world experience from people who are shooting the sort of set-up I'm considering is what I need. With the adjustable gas block, do you need to be tweaking it as it gets dirty, or is it more "set & forget" once you've found the desired setting for your load? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 if you're going 18" Nordic, then you don't need the adjustable gas. You can still run the lightweight BCG in this setup using a standard carbine buffer. if you choose a different barrel, then gas port may well be larger, in which case, you may want to add the adjustable gas block.... Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrusaderUSA Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 I spent about 10 minutes talking with Black Hole Weaponry late this afternoon, and that proved to be a very helpful conversation. They said that the 18" barrel with rifle-length gas tends to be a bit undergassed while the 18" with mid-length gas tends to be overgassed. He recommended using an adjustable gas block if I went with the mid-length, or they would build me a custom barrel with an intermediate-length gas system which shouldn't need an adjustable gas block. Ultimately given how I want to use the rifle, he recommended the latter course of action. The catch is that intermediate-length gas tubes are difficult to find. Rainier Arms has them on the website, but out of stock. MidwayUSA has a Noveske, but the description makes it sound as if that gas tube is designed only for their barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I've never heard anything about all this talk of an 18" rifle length gas system barrel being problematic. And neither have have any of the people I've ever squadded with. I'd say 70% or better of the serious 3 gunners that I shoot with are running an 18" rifle length, and none of them are having problems with the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I should add that these guys are running every conceivable combination of standard/low mass/ultra low mass carriers, adjustable/non adjustable gas blocks, spring rates and JP SCS systems, heavy buffers to little pieces of plastic on top the spring and all kinds of other related things. And no one is having problems with under gassing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishsticks Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 I should add that these guys are running every conceivable combination of standard/low mass/ultra low mass carriers, adjustable/non adjustable gas blocks, spring rates and JP SCS systems, heavy buffers to little pieces of plastic on top the spring and all kinds of other related things. And no one is having problems with under gassing.... But the gun store said it wouldn't work....... My experience has been the same as Tony's. In fact my AR has been through several iterations, and despite the fact I still don't know much it's managed to function just fine with a variety of mismatched parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrusaderUSA Posted July 24, 2015 Author Share Posted July 24, 2015 I've never heard anything about all this talk of an 18" rifle length gas system barrel being problematic. And neither have have any of the people I've ever squadded with. I'd say 70% or better of the serious 3 gunners that I shoot with are running an 18" rifle length, and none of them are having problems with the system. Yeah, it took me by surprise given everything I have read so far, which is why I wanted to see if anyone here had any experience that validated what the shop guys were saying. All the guys I squad with shoot 16" barrels, so they couldn't really help me with regard to an 18" barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 Not to sound like too much of a dickhead (not that I can help it) but unless the shop guys are actively involved with sport there's a good chance they haven't been exposed to the level of tinkering and parts combos that the average 3 gunner makes work. Its just not in their wheelhouse. Kinda like when all my friends who are in the military tell me the only way to hold an AR is by the magwell. Its just what they know and there's no changing their minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocoGringo Posted July 24, 2015 Share Posted July 24, 2015 (edited) I haven't posted much because I've been doing a lot more reading, but if they're in stock, an AR15performance 18" .223 Wylde chambered, melonited barrel with rifle length gas, 5R rifling and 1:8 twist has served me VERY well for the past year and a half. I run suppressors on other AR-15 rifles, so adjustable gas blocks are necessary, but I've been tinkering with the idea of going to a low mass carrier and the exact SLR gas block you are describing for my unsuppressed 3-gun rifle. I have a SLR on a different rifle for use with a suppressor and it works wonderfully. It really is a "set it and forget it" gas block that is easy to use. I haven't had a single malfunction out of this rifle yet and have shot 69 grain and 77 grain commercially loaded match ammo very accurately as well as cheap 55 grain ammo (though not as accurately obviously) and it was all commercially loaded. To prepare for the Rockcastle Pro/Am last year, I shot my PMC bronze ammo at 300 yards to get my aiming point for that distance and was able to get 3 of 5 rounds within 1.1" and all 5 rounds would have easily been on a 5" steel target. If you're handloading, whether it's 55 grain or 69 grain or 77 grain, you should easily get better results that will be 100% reliable as well since you'll likely be loading a little "hotter" than commercial loads. For future upgrades or better "tuning", an adjustable gas block is a really good idea. The SLR is an excellent choice. I've also used a Syrac Gen I and a PRI adjustable, but they don't compare to the SLR. A closer comparison to the SLR might be the Syrac Gen II, but I've looked at their specs and I still like the SLR better. For your struggle in the decision of gas length, the rifle length gas system is unmatched in soft recoil impulse. When coupled with a proper "tune" on the gas block, a low mass carrier (so I'm told) and a very effective muzzle device, recoil doesn't exist. You might as well be shooting a .22. I'm no pro, but I'm able to get .15 second splits on double taps at 30 yards that easily stay on target for being neutralized...and I don't have a low mass carrier or an adjustable gas block yet. Edit to add: If you can't wait for the AR15performance barrel, I've not heard anything bad about Blackhole Weaponry barrels, but have no actual experience with them either. The others you list, I don't know about, but with the variance of competitions you list, I would prefer to go with a .223 Wylde chamber over a 5.56 NATO. Edited July 24, 2015 by LocoGringo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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