R.O. Got in the way

[bret]

Round Gun Shooter,

I don't see on the rule cited where it says if the guy has a bad run and there is contact, no reshoot, but if he had a good run he should get a reshoot.

The rules are the rules and should be applied fairly to everyone and not subjected to personal interpretation of the individual R.O.'s.

I have seem CRO's at major matches let people slide on issues, yet other CRO's in the same match enforced the rules as written.

One was a safety wasn't on when a 2011 was holstered, he was allowed to slide because it had a grip safety.

Another was the shooter ditched a 2011 without the safety being on, he said it was on when he ditched it in the box, but it was clearly off when we checked it, he was not DQ'd but given a 30 second penalty.

After the match I read the rules again, no where did I see a 30 second penalty instead of a DQ.

Yet another guy swept himself and was DQ'd, another guys gun fell out of a holster and was DQ'd, which is the right call.

Rules should be enforced across the board to everyone.

[Gary Stevens]

Pretty simple actually. Clear the shooter and before they hear the time or see the targets ask them about the reshoot. Then do whatever the shooter request.

[lneel]

RO should have offered a reshoot prior to scoring.

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

It is up to the RO. Though clearly sounds like I would have given him a reshoot in the same situation for sure.

Lee

[9x45]

Ok, lets say you are having a Man on Fire run, charging the arrays, out run the RO, then back step to pick up a black alpha, and the RO runs into you, and then you finish the stage. So his rationale is it didn't hurt your run, it could have, it's only an opinion, and he rules no re-shoot under the "May" rule. The shooter protests to the MD, what should the decision be? I think it has to be a re-shoot, otherwise you could argue that none of the other 300 shooters got bumped by the RO so it couldn't have hurt their run either.

[bret]

In this case I don't think the R.O. knew the rule and neither did the shooter.

I am not the R.O. I was helping run the score pad.

I thought he should get a reshoot but since I wasn't sure, I didn't bring it up.

I keep my rule book on my bag, but not sure where to look.

Now I know and I will reread the book, tab and highlight it for future reference.

There were 2 people in his way, one was the R.O. the other guy I think was running a video camera and he was behind the R.O. and was in the R.O.'s way.

This is one reason why many R.O.'s will not allow people to follow with a camera, because they can get in the way, the R.O. with the timer needs to concentrate on the shooter and mainly be watching his gun, he should not be distracted by anyone else.

The squad started advancing to paste because they thought he was finishing up, this speeds things up but no one should advance until the R.O. gives the Range is clear command.

I ran the pad, would score the 4 targets he engaged first then get the time and follow the R.O. for the rest of the scores, if there was a Mike or a no shoot , I would call the shooter over to look at it, then they would paste it.

I am new and very safety conscious, it seems some people get lax with safety when running shooters to speed things up.

[motosapiens]

I can see a situation where May Offer would be used. Guy does it on purpose etc. I wasn't there but the norm is to offer a reshoot pretty much no matter what if you touch someone or get in their way.

Yep, and I have seen this situation in real life. If you are having a train wreck of a run and 'decide' to run back and pick up a mag you dropped earlier, I'm not saying you are intentionally running into the RO, but I don't think it's unreasonable to at least take into account whether or not that contact *really* affected your run. It could be very slight contact, for example, and while I'm sure the shooter would love a reshoot, is it fair to all the other shooters to give out a freebie 'get-out-of-trainwreck-free' card.

I would rely on the RO's discretion.

[bret]

I can see a situation where May Offer would be used. Guy does it on purpose etc. I wasn't there but the norm is to offer a reshoot pretty much no matter what if you touch someone or get in their way.

Yep, and I have seen this situation in real life. If you are having a train wreck of a run and 'decide' to run back and pick up a mag you dropped earlier, I'm not saying you are intentionally running into the RO, but I don't think it's unreasonable to at least take into account whether or not that contact *really* affected your run. It could be very slight contact, for example, and while I'm sure the shooter would love a reshoot, is it fair to all the other shooters to give out a freebie 'get-out-of-trainwreck-free' card.

I would rely on the RO's discretion.

Does the contact have to negatively affect their run for a reshoot?

In this case neither the R.O. nor the shooter said anything about a reshoot, I don't think they knew about the rule.

Now that I know what the rule is, if it happens again it can be brought up to the R.O.

[motosapiens]

I can see a situation where May Offer would be used. Guy does it on purpose etc. I wasn't there but the norm is to offer a reshoot pretty much no matter what if you touch someone or get in their way.

Yep, and I have seen this situation in real life. If you are having a train wreck of a run and 'decide' to run back and pick up a mag you dropped earlier, I'm not saying you are intentionally running into the RO, but I don't think it's unreasonable to at least take into account whether or not that contact *really* affected your run. It could be very slight contact, for example, and while I'm sure the shooter would love a reshoot, is it fair to all the other shooters to give out a freebie 'get-out-of-trainwreck-free' card.

I would rely on the RO's discretion.

Does the contact have to negatively affect their run for a reshoot?

In this case neither the R.O. nor the shooter said anything about a reshoot, I don't think they knew about the rule.

Now that I know what the rule is, if it happens again it can be brought up to the R.O.

Here's what the rule says:

"In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire."

I would tend to say that if the contact has no negative effect, there may not be a need for a re-shoot, but it's definitely one of the real gray areas in the rulebook.

[d_striker]

KTM,

It was obvious that it was not on purpose, plus if it was he would have asked for a reshoot.

I don't really agree with this.

What if it was a case where the RO didn't know the rule (like this one) and the shooter did. I would have certainly asked for a reshoot.

[bret]

I can see a situation where May Offer would be used. Guy does it on purpose etc. I wasn't there but the norm is to offer a reshoot pretty much no matter what if you touch someone or get in their way.

Yep, and I have seen this situation in real life. If you are having a train wreck of a run and 'decide' to run back and pick up a mag you dropped earlier, I'm not saying you are intentionally running into the RO, but I don't think it's unreasonable to at least take into account whether or not that contact *really* affected your run. It could be very slight contact, for example, and while I'm sure the shooter would love a reshoot, is it fair to all the other shooters to give out a freebie 'get-out-of-trainwreck-free' card.

I would rely on the RO's discretion.

Does the contact have to negatively affect their run for a reshoot?

In this case neither the R.O. nor the shooter said anything about a reshoot, I don't think they knew about the rule.

Now that I know what the rule is, if it happens again it can be brought up to the R.O.

Here's what the rule says:

"In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire."

I would tend to say that if the contact has no negative effect, there may not be a need for a re-shoot, but it's definitely one of the real gray areas in the rulebook.

The problem is the rule book doesn't say it has to negatively affect the shooter.

It says if contact is made and in interfered with the shooter. I guess people could argue about what interfered means.

In my opinion the R.O. should not have allowed anyone to follow him into the shooting area especially the shoot house.

By allowing the guy to follow him now you have 2 people on the way, the R.O. was blocked by the guy with a video camera, the shooter was blocked by the R.O. and possibly the guy with the video camera.

If I was the R.O. I would not have allowed the guy with the camera to follow me, if I didn't know he was going to. Once I saw him in the shoot house, I would stop the shooter and have the guy leave and the shooter reshoot the stage.

I am a photographer too, but I stay out of the shooting area, I use a Go Pro to record my stages, if someone asks me to record them I do and I let the R.O. know what I add m doing and I stay way back out of their way.

[motosapiens]

The problem is the rule book doesn't say it has to negatively affect the shooter.

That's not a problem for me. The rulebook says the RO *may* offer a reshoot. It's a judgement call on the part of the RO.

Your other (nonquoted) points make great sense.

[d_striker]

Ok, lets say you are having a Man on Fire run, charging the arrays, out run the RO, then back step to pick up a black alpha, and the RO runs into you, and then you finish the stage. So his rationale is it didn't hurt your run, it could have, it's only an opinion, and he rules no re-shoot under the "May" rule. The shooter protests to the MD, what should the decision be? I think it has to be a re-shoot, otherwise you could argue that none of the other 300 shooters got bumped by the RO so it couldn't have hurt their run either.

It's on the RO to offer the reshoot. It's up to the competitor to decide if they want the reshoot prior to scoring.

[9x45]

No, my question is if the RO didn't offer the re-shoot and the shooter protested (Level 2 or higher) what would the MD rule?

[D.Hayden]

No, my question is if the RO didn't offer the re-shoot and the shooter protested (Level 2 or higher) what would the MD rule?

I think in most circumstances the RM would grant it.. unless the RO gave good reasons why it should not be granted

[motosapiens]

No, my question is if the RO didn't offer the re-shoot and the shooter protested (Level 2 or higher) what would the MD rule?

depends on the situation. I got the benefit of an RO intereference call at nationals that the RO didn't want to offer. After discussion with the RM he changed his mind.

It's certainly the shooter's prerogative to suggest that he might have been interfered with, and ask for the RM if the RO disagrees.

[ChuckS]

No, my question is if the RO didn't offer the re-shoot and the shooter protested (Level 2 or higher) what would the MD rule?

MD has no say However, the RM might

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Round Gun Shooter,

I don't see on the rule cited where it says if the guy has a bad run and there is contact, no reshoot, but if he had a good run he should get a reshoot.

The rules are the rules and should be applied fairly to everyone and not subjected to personal interpretation of the individual R.O.'s.

And the rules states the RO MAY offer. My statement shows what I would have considered in offering a reshoot. Tight spaces, poor run with poor equipment prep to me = I don't make the offer as the run was already in the septic tank before the shooter ran into the RO. That would weigh in on how I made my decision.

As for your other statement, I have played this game for a while and have worked matches and I agree with proper use of the rules. The statement I made is proper use of the rules. Everything is not in writing as far as rules are concerned. How do you suggest a reshoot offer be determined, toss of a coin? The determination to offer or not comes from the RO and his/her experience. If you already crewed the pooch, don't expect a reshoot from me when you run back at me to recover gear you lost whether intentionally or accidentally. You will be disappointed.

[d_striker]

Round Gun Shooter,

I don't see on the rule cited where it says if the guy has a bad run and there is contact, no reshoot, but if he had a good run he should get a reshoot.

The rules are the rules and should be applied fairly to everyone and not subjected to personal interpretation of the individual R.O.'s.

And the rules states the RO MAY offer. My statement shows what I would have considered in offering a reshoot. Tight spaces, poor run with poor equipment prep to me = I don't make the offer as the run was already in the septic tank before the shooter ran into the RO. That would weigh in on how I made my decision.

As for your other statement, I have played this game for a while and have worked matches and I agree with proper use of the rules. The statement I made is proper use of the rules. Everything is not in writing as far as rules are concerned. How do you suggest a reshoot offer be determined, toss of a coin? The determination to offer or not comes from the RO and his/her experience. If you already crewed the pooch, don't expect a reshoot from me when you run back at me to recover gear you lost whether intentionally or accidentally. You will be disappointed.

And that's when I would take it to the RM. I think you guys are getting very caught up on the "may" within this rule. Sure, I understand the legalese significance behind the word "may."

As an RO, you have the duty to determine whether the contact was intentional or accidental. If it was accidental, a good RO is obligated to offer a reshoot. If they don't offer it for whatever reason, the shooter is entitled to ask for it. If you the RO denies the request, I would take it to the RM. If the RM denies a legitimate RO Interference reshoot request I would be very skeptical of both the RO and the RM's knowledge of the rules and general integrity.

If the contact was intentional, 10.6 the shooter.

If that's really your stance on the matter, I really hope you don't RO major matches. And please let me know what club you shoot at so I can make sure I never shoot a match there.

Edited July 13, 2015 by d_striker

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Please show the rule where it says that. That is what arbitration is for I guess.

As for me and majors, I have probably worked more majors that you have and never had a complaint of any kind. Due to injuries I no longer work matches so no matter where you go, your should be safe unless I am the Chrono guy

[d_striker]

Please show the rule where it says that. That is what arbitration is for I guess.

As for me and majors, I have probably worked more majors that you have and never had a complaint of any kind. Due to injuries I no longer work matches so no matter where you go, your should be safe unless I am the Chrono guy

Has this scenario came up at a major match where you, the RO, legitimately interfered with a shooter and did not offer them a reshoot because you felt like they didn't deserve it?

If so, I think NROI would like to know.

[9x45]

No, my question is if the RO didn't offer the re-shoot and the shooter protested (Level 2 or higher) what would the MD rule?

MD has no say However, the RM might

Whoever the big boss guy is... Managing Directing of the Range Masters in charge of managing directions, and stuff. The guy that takes your $100, that guy.

Edited July 13, 2015 by 9x45

[d_striker]

Please show the rule where it says that. That is what arbitration is for I guess.

As for me and majors, I have probably worked more majors that you have and never had a complaint of any kind. Due to injuries I no longer work matches so no matter where you go, your should be safe unless I am the Chrono guy

I can't provide a rule but perhaps Troy can clarify this as I sent him an email.

Hello Troy,

I had a question about rule 8.6.4. In a discussion on a Rules forum, there are a few experienced certified RO's who feel that the word "may" allows them a certain amount of latitude that I'm not quite so sure of.

In the scenario of legitimate, unintentional contact with the RO, such as a shooter moving backwards to retrieve a mag on the ground, I was under the impression, from a recent RO class with <name withheld>, that the RO is obligated to offer a reshoot prior to scoring. And if the RO does not offer a reshoot, the shooter is entitled to ask for a reshoot due to the interference.

There is one individual, that has extensive RO experience, RO'd many major matches, and is certified with NROI, that feels that they as the RO are entitled to deny the shooter a reshoot if they feel like it. Even if it was legitimately accidental contact.

Can you please provide clarification on this matter as the word "may" does in fact suggest a great amount of RO latitude.

Edited July 13, 2015 by d_striker

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Please show the rule where it says that. That is what arbitration is for I guess.

As for me and majors, I have probably worked more majors that you have and never had a complaint of any kind. Due to injuries I no longer work matches so no matter where you go, your should be safe unless I am the Chrono guy

I can't provide a rule but perhaps Troy can clarify this as I sent him an email.

Hello Troy,

I had a question about rule 8.6.4. In a discussion on a Rules forum, there are a few experienced certified RO's who feel that the word "may" allows them a certain amount of latitude that I'm not quite so sure of.

In the scenario of legitimate, unintentional contact with the RO, such as a shooter moving backwards to retrieve a mag on the ground, I was under the impression, from a recent RO class with <name withheld>, that the RO is obligated to offer a reshoot prior to scoring. And if the RO does not offer a reshoot, the shooter is entitled to ask for a reshoot due to the interference.

There is one individual, that has extensive RO experience, RO'd many major matches, and is certified with NROI, that feels that they as the RO are entitled to deny the shooter a reshoot if they feel like it. Even if it was legitimately accidental contact.

Can you please provide clarification on this matter as the word "may" does in fact suggest a great amount of RO latitude.

You kind of read a lot into comments don't you. I never said "If I feel Like it" Please re read my comments and if you need them explained to you speak with an adult

[d_striker]

Not having been there and reading this, I would NOT have offered a reshoot to someone that had been having these problems. The shooter was already in trouble and the bump just compounded existing problems.

If he was having a great run with no problems, that is another matter. In this instance, I side with the RO

And the rules states the RO MAY offer. My statement shows what I would have considered in offering a reshoot. Tight spaces, poor run with poor equipment prep to me = I don't make the offer as the run was already in the septic tank before the shooter ran into the RO. That would weigh in on how I made my decision.

As for your other statement, I have played this game for a while and have worked matches and I agree with proper use of the rules. The statement I made is proper use of the rules. Everything is not in writing as far as rules are concerned. How do you suggest a reshoot offer be determined, toss of a coin? The determination to offer or not comes from the RO and his/her experience. If you already crewed the pooch, don't expect a reshoot from me when you run back at me to recover gear you lost whether intentionally or accidentally. You will be disappointed.

I read the words exactly as they appear.

I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing match here; only finding the proper way to handle the scenario. If you're offended by any of this, perhaps you're the one that needs to put their big boy pants on?

I have only been recently certified as an RO so I'm not trying to pretend that I have all the answers. You have a lot of experience. You might in fact be entirely correct in your approach. In either case, I participate in these discussions as I have the sincere intent to call it correctly as an RO.

Edited July 13, 2015 by d_striker

[Nimitz]

too bad the shooter didn't ask for a reshoot as that would have been a lot more interesting to discuss depending on what the RO's response was .... since the shooter didn't ask and the RO didn't offer it's kind of moot since by rule he is not required to give a reshoot ...