Shooter allowed to utilize a timer?

[teros135]

Shooter's friend isn't giving assistance in shooting the COF (8.6.1, 8.6.2), and if the RO gives permission it isn't "unauthorized assistance". He isn't doing any more than a camera-toting friend is, who most ROs seem happy to accommodate (8.7.3).

I'm fine with using a Shotmaxx (quietly) to record your shot times. (You can set the Shotmaxx to NOT beep when you're using it to record shot times.)

The timer's "beep" is a Range Command, the "start signal" (8.3.4) on all COFs and also a "stop" signal on a Fixed Time COF, issued by the RO (8.3.4). Any shots after the stop signal incur a penalty (9.4.6.1)

On a par time stage, the second beep signals the END of the shooting period . I'd love to see the RO yell "stop" when the shooter's timer goes off ("was that your timer, or mine? Never mind - stop."). No reshoot there - the shooter interfered with his own stage.

Edited June 27, 2015 by teros135

[Nimitz]

so what rule are you going to site when the OP tells you he plans to do this and you don't want him to ?

[peterthefish]

so what rule are you going to site when the OP tells you he plans to do this and you don't want him to ?

The unwritten "I don't think it should be allowed" rule apparently...

[thermobollocks]

On a particularly long par time course I'd probably just stick with a watch with a second hand. I'd LOVE to arb that if someone thought it was cheating.

[Chills1994]

It's like cameras they are not part of competitors equipment so give the competitor no time to turn them on at 'are you ready?', if they start to move to turn them on because they have forgotten warn them for creeping

Huh?

I guess it depends on the camera.

If it is a head mounted camera or eyeglass cam like the iKam or the Pivotheads, then when the RO asks "Are you ready?", the shooter can simply say "No" or shake his head. Then he can turn his camera on and resume just like normal.

If the RO wants to rush through it with a "Areyouready?standby!BEEP!", the shooter can just stand there and not do anything pretending like he never heard the BEEP!

If the camera is on a tripod mounted 20 feet away and the shooter has to leave the start position to go turn it on, then yeah, that's a different story.

[Gooldylocks]

I use my shotmaxx in spy all the time, it doesn't say I can't so I'm going to. I can use it as a training tool to analyze my splits, draws, transitions... it is especially nice on classifiers. Would I use it as a par timer? No, but I don't shoot 3 gun so my Fixed time stages are like 6 seconds max haha.

[Sarge]

Unbelievable to say the least. I am guessing this would eventually be addressed by dnroi if it became a problem.

Cheating doesn't have to always be outlined in rules. I think most of us know when something is not right even if it's not covered in a rule set. Sure, an RO can't make up rules and try to enforce them. But he and the shooter will know something was done that probably SHOULD not have been. This is the kind of stuff we let RMS figure out.

And man I gotta ask if you are using a second hand to let you know when you are closing in on a par time you doing how are you looking at the targets?

[ctay]

I would prefer that USPSA not get a "Failure to do right" rule to cover the "I feel that was not right" situations. Opinions should stay out of rules - in my opinion...

Edited June 29, 2015 by ctay

[Gooldylocks]

Unbelievable to say the least. I am guessing this would eventually be addressed by dnroi if it became a problem.

Cheating doesn't have to always be outlined in rules. I think most of us know when something is not right even if it's not covered in a rule set. Sure, an RO can't make up rules and try to enforce them. But he and the shooter will know something was done that probably SHOULD not have been. This is the kind of stuff we let RMS figure out.

And man I gotta ask if you are using a second hand to let you know when you are closing in on a par time you doing how are you looking at the targets?

I fully disagree. Why would it be cheating if you were shooting a 3 gun match and wanted a timer alert on long courses and used your watch? It isn't against the rules, so anyone has the option to do so if they so choose.

I can go shoot open with my carry SR9c versus your Cheely 2011 and get whooped, but I can't then go and complain that you "cheated with your optics, comp and big stick." The option to use all of those things is available to me, I chose to not use it. My loss.

[Sarge]

Unbelievable to say the least. I am guessing this would eventually be addressed by dnroi if it became a problem.

Cheating doesn't have to always be outlined in rules. I think most of us know when something is not right even if it's not covered in a rule set. Sure, an RO can't make up rules and try to enforce them. But he and the shooter will know something was done that probably SHOULD not have been. This is the kind of stuff we let RMS figure out.

And man I gotta ask if you are using a second hand to let you know when you are closing in on a par time you doing how are you looking at the targets?

I fully disagree. Why would it be cheating if you were shooting a 3 gun match and wanted a timer alert on long courses and used your watch? It isn't against the rules, so anyone has the option to do so if they so choose.

I can go shoot open with my carry SR9c versus your Cheely 2011 and get whooped, but I can't then go and complain that you "cheated with your optics, comp and big stick." The option to use all of those things is available to me, I chose to not use it. My loss.

Do what you want in 3 gun. Shooting a bug gun against an open gun in open has exactly what to do with any of this? In a fixed time course of fire in USPSA you get penalized for firing overtime shots. If you have a way of preventing you from doing that and other shooters don't that is not consistent with the rules as they apply to competitive equity.

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire

Possibly 10.6

This is just how I see it. If the RM doesn't agree that's fine with me. If you arb it and win that's fine. This isn't about me vs you on a stage, it's about me looking out for all shooters in regards to fairness.

[wtturn]

This is in the USPSA rules forum, and I don't care about 3 gun anyway, so this response is purely relating to USPSA.

My take is if you are taking the time to check your ShotMaxx during a COF you're boned anyway.

I fail to see where this creates a competitive inequity. Heck, I hope all my competition starts checking their wrist during a stage.

I know at least one guy who uses his as a diagnostic tool after the fact, as another poster mentioned, to check splits/transitions/draws/ etc.

[bikerburgess]

Unbelievable to say the least. I am guessing this would eventually be addressed by dnroi if it became a problem.

Cheating doesn't have to always be outlined in rules. I think most of us know when something is not right even if it's not covered in a rule set. Sure, an RO can't make up rules and try to enforce them. But he and the shooter will know something was done that probably SHOULD not have been. This is the kind of stuff we let RMS figure out.

And man I gotta ask if you are using a second hand to let you know when you are closing in on a par time you doing how are you looking at the targets?

I fully disagree. Why would it be cheating if you were shooting a 3 gun match and wanted a timer alert on long courses and used your watch? It isn't against the rules, so anyone has the option to do so if they so choose.

I can go shoot open with my carry SR9c versus your Cheely 2011 and get whooped, but I can't then go and complain that you "cheated with your optics, comp and big stick." The option to use all of those things is available to me, I chose to not use it. My loss.

Do what you want in 3 gun. Shooting a bug gun against an open gun in open has exactly what to do with any of this? In a fixed time course of fire in USPSA you get penalized for firing overtime shots. If you have a way of preventing you from doing that and other shooters don't that is not consistent with the rules as they apply to competitive equity.

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire

Possibly 10.6

This is just how I see it. If the RM doesn't agree that's fine with me. If you arb it and win that's fine. This isn't about me vs you on a stage, it's about me looking out for all shooters in regards to fairness.

I think you are stretching the rules to prevent something that is not in the rules from happening. if the shooter had someone assisting them that rule would apply, if they are assisting themselves it does not. there are many things that are not in regulated by the rule book and as such cannot be penalized.

[Sarge]

This is in the USPSA rules forum, and I don't care about 3 gun anyway, so this response is purely relating to USPSA.

My take is if you are taking the time to check your ShotMaxx during a COF you're boned anyway.

I fail to see where this creates a competitive inequity. Heck, I hope all my competition starts checking their wrist during a stage.

I know at least one guy who uses his as a diagnostic tool after the fact, as another poster mentioned, to check splits/transitions/draws/ etc.

The shotmaxx will give you a beep if you set it to do so. You would not be looking at it. You would hear a warning beep that you should stop before the real timer beeps.

[motosapiens]

The shotmaxx will give you a beep if you set it to do so. You would not be looking at it. You would hear a warning beep that you should stop before the real timer beeps.

But that would make you do worse, since unless you have unnaturally slow reactions, you *shouldn't* stop before the real timer beeps. You should continue shooting until the real timer beeps, and then stop (or until you've shot everything that needs shooting, if you can accomplish that before the real timer beeps).

Edited June 29, 2015 by motosapiens

[Corey]

I think I said it on a different thread about smart watches and Ill say it again. If you think something like this will help you, go for it. While you're fiddling with your extra gadget and having it go off mid-stage and making you consciously think about what just happened, Ill go ahead and beat you.

[kamikaze1a]

Sheesh....I did not think this would be so controversial!

I don't see how this could be considered cheating any more than someone coming up with a revolutionary way to tame recoil or designing a quicker holster/mag carrier and being the first shooter to use it in competition. Did they say it was cheating when the first shooter attached a red dot sight to their pistol?

After that first competitor, if the other competitors thought there was an advantage then they too could jump on the bandwagon or not. And then if NROI thought it need to be addressed they could.

If there was two shooters side by side I could see the point about interference but for a solo shooter, why not? As for confusing the RO, a beep a minute or two short of the allotted time should be pretty obvious. In any case, as per 8.6.1 wouldn't it be coaching if the RO stops the shooter at the beep? Isn't it up to the shooter to stop at the beep on their own?

[motosapiens]

Sheesh....I did not think this would be so controversial!

Some of these old guys are still cranky about elvis and his obscene dancing, not to mention cellphones, facebook and indoor plumbing.

[Sarge]

Sheesh....I did not think this would be so controversial!

I don't see how this could be considered cheating any more than someone coming up with a revolutionary way to tame recoil or designing a quicker holster/mag carrier and being the first shooter to use it in competition. Did they say it was cheating when the first shooter attached a red dot sight to their pistol?

After that first competitor, if the other competitors thought there was an advantage then they too could jump on the bandwagon or not. And then if NROI thought it need to be addressed they could.

If there was two shooters side by side I could see the point about interference but for a solo shooter, why not? As for confusing the RO, a beep a minute or two short of the allotted time should be pretty obvious. In any case, as per 8.6.1 wouldn't it be coaching if the RO stops the shooter at the beep? Isn't it up to the shooter to stop at the beep on their own?

We are not talking about a minute or two or mid stage. Fixed time cofs are in seconds. Let's say you get penalized for shooting past 10 seconds and you set your own beep for 9 seconds because you don't want to go over 10 due to a slow reaction.

Like I said it's just my take on it guys.

[kamikaze1a]

Actually, my original question was regarding a two or three minute fixed time rifle/pistol COF. I figured that it would be useful to know when half of the allotted time had elapsed or when I had a minute left so I that I could adjust...

[Sarge]

Actually, my original question was regarding a two or three minute fixed time rifle/pistol COF. I figured that it would be useful to know when half of the allotted time had elapsed or when I had a minute left so I that I could adjust...

That is not really uspsa rules i guess. I have been talking about uspsa handgun fixed time COF's

[Sarge]

Sanders <sandfam7300@gmail.com>

3:46 PM (2 hours ago)

to DNROI

Fixed time course. Can a shooter wear a shotmaxx timer in spy mode and set it to beep just before the RO timer so he avoids possible penalties?

I personally think it is probably cheating but the rules don't seem to forbid it. I think it qualifies as assistance but not sure a shooter can assist himself? New technology brings new problems I guess.

Thanks

[Sarge]

Troy <mactiger@eatel.net>

5:37 PM (43 minutes ago)

to me

I would probably use 8.6.1 to prohibit the use of the shotmaxx timer in that way. It specifically says, "no assistance of any kind may be given to a competitor...", and this is certainly assisting him in beating or predicting the par time beeper. The rule doesn't say where or how that assistance is provided. Also, if it beeps, then it can probably be heard by other competitors, and may be considered assistance or interference, per both 8.6.1 and 8.7.4, since overtime shots are part of the scoring process for fixed time stages.


Regards,

Troy

[kamikaze1a]

Thanks, I guess that settles that. I did not realize you could be penalized for assisting yourself...

[peterthefish]

That seems like a very tortured reading of 8.6.1 to reach the desired result (That you think it should be prohibited).

The fact that a ShotMaxx may assist a competitor is one thing. But I just cannot accept that the phrase "given to a competitor" contemplates a competitor helping themselves.

Using a better gun, holster, or mag pouches (other equipment) are other things a competitor can do to help themselves. Same for counting shots to prevent going to slide lock. This is simply a case of using better equipment.

I think 8.7.4 is a reach too - the ROs timer could interfere with other shooters too.

I also disagree with the repeated characterization that this is a potential issue brought on by new technology. Anyone with a Timex in 1990 could set a countdown timer to an alarm.

Anyway, the way the question was asked "Whaahhhhh, I think this is cheating", I'm not surprised with the answer. Would have been interesting had the question actually been posed in a neutral manner. Because if this is the way compensators and red dots had been treated, it would be a very different sport today.

Edited June 30, 2015 by peterthefish

[Sarge]

That seems like a very tortured reading of 8.6.1 to reach the desired result (That you think it should be prohibited).

The fact that a ShotMaxx may assist a competitor is one thing. But I just cannot accept that the phrase "given to a competitor" contemplates a competitor helping themselves.

Using a better gun, holster, or mag pouches (other equipment) are other things a competitor can do to help themselves. Same for counting shots to prevent going to slide lock. This is simply a case of using better equipment.

I think 8.7.4 is a reach too - the ROs timer could interfere with other shooters too.

I also disagree with the repeated characterization that this is a potential issue brought on by new technology. Anyone with a Timex in 1990 could set a countdown timer to an alarm.

Anyway, the way the question was asked "Whaahhhhh, I think this is cheating", I'm not surprised with the answer. Would have been interesting had the question actually been posed in a neutral manner. Because if this is the way compensators and red dots had been treated, it would be a very different sport today.

Comps and dots lead to open right?