Shooter allowed to utilize a timer?

[kamikaze1a]

Is it allowed for the competitor to carry and use a timer during their COF?

Would it be different if it was a par time COF and used to warn the competitor that a certain amount of time has elapsed? Or how about during 3gun?

I could not find any rule or article that applied to this...

[teros135]

The rule book does not say the shooter is allowed to carry or utilize a timer. It's not listed anywhere under Equipment.

And, how would you use a timer without interfering with the duties of the RO, whose job it *is* to use a timer? Only the RO can issue the Start command ("beep").

[peterthefish]

The rule book does not say the shooter is allowed to carry or utilize a timer. It's not listed anywhere under Equipment.

And, how would you use a timer without interfering with the duties of the RO, whose job it *is* to use a timer? Only the RO can issue the Start command ("beep").

A rule book does not serve to state everything that is allowed (does it state you are allowed to wear shorts? Dye your hair? Wear a cowboy hat) but rather what is prohibited or required.

Shotmaxx + Spy Mode.

As to OP, what good would having a 5 second to par time warning other than make you think "uh-oh, time to hurry".

Edited June 26, 2015 by peterthefish

[pmt]

.... used to warn the competitor that a certain amount of time has elapsed?

Do you really want to to process this information while 'on the clock'?

[terrydoc]

It's like cameras they are not part of competitors equipment so give the competitor no time to turn them on at 'are you ready?', if they start to move to turn them on because they have forgotten warn them for creeping

[Nimitz]

can't really come up with any "value-added" reason you'd want to do this no matter what the rule book said ... and given what I've seen at local matchs there damn well should be fashion rules added to the rulebook ....

[GrumpyOne]

can't really come up with any "value-added" reason you'd want to do this no matter what the rule book said ... and given what I've seen at local matchs there damn well should be fashion rules added to the rulebook ....

https://youtu.be/kKQ9yhktBu8

[kamikaze1a]

The rule book does not say the shooter is allowed to carry or utilize a timer. It's not listed anywhere under Equipment.

And, how would you use a timer without interfering with the duties of the RO, whose job it *is* to use a timer? Only the RO can issue the Start command ("beep").

A rule book does not serve to state everything that is allowed (does it state you are allowed to wear shorts? Dye your hair? Wear a cowboy hat) but rather what is prohibited or required.

Shotmaxx + Spy Mode.

As to OP, what good would having a 5 second to par time warning other than make you think "uh-oh, time to hurry".

During our Level I matches we sometimes have rifle or rifle/pistol stages with par times of up to two or three minutes or more with a few finishing the COF in time and others not. I feel knowing when I have a minute left could be useful...

[teros135]

Guess having a crutch could be helpful...to some...

[Sarge]

I think a personal timer warning you of time running out on par time COF is cheating. Not gaming, not useful, cheating

[Gary Stevens]

I am continually surprised at the level of ideas our sport can produce.

[Flatland Shooter]

At the 2014 Texas Multigun the long range rifle stage had steel from 100 yards out to 488 yards with a 20-25 MPH crosswind. Finish the steel and you went to around 18 shotgun targets.

Many (including myself) used up all our time on the rifle targets and never got to the shotgun.

Several competitors in the squad ahead of us had wrist watches that beeped after so many seconds. A soon as the watch beeped, they went for their shotguns.

It was apparently allowed and looked like a pretty good idea.

Bill

[peterthefish]

I think a personal timer warning you of time running out on par time COF is cheating. Not gaming, not useful, cheating

Cheating? As in, breaking one of those rules that's not written down? Alarm watches have been around what, at least 25+ years now - I remember my first Timex Ironman. If it was that much of an advantage, wouldn't it have been thought of and dealt with in that time period?

[Sarge]

I think a personal timer warning you of time running out on par time COF is cheating. Not gaming, not useful, cheating

Cheating? As in, breaking one of those rules that's not written down? Alarm watches have been around what, at least 25+ years now - I remember my first Timex Ironman. If it was that much of an advantage, wouldn't it have been thought of and dealt with in that time period?

Not necessarily.

[teros135]

I looked up the DAA Shotmaxx+. It's a wrist watch type device that will silently (in "spy mode") record your shots, which gives you a personal record of your run that you can review later. In this mode it doesn't emit a beep, so it wouldn't interfere with the official shot timer. I guess that wouldn't provide an advantage during the run (no "reminders"), but you have to remember to turn it on, like a hat cam, so it's another thing to think about.

[peterthefish]

I looked up the DAA Shotmaxx+. It's a wrist watch type device that will silently (in "spy mode") record your shots, which gives you a personal record of your run that you can review later. In this mode it doesn't emit a beep, so it wouldn't interfere with the official shot timer. I guess that wouldn't provide an advantage during the run (no "reminders"), but you have to remember to turn it on, like a hat cam, so it's another thing to think about.

You can use spy mode to start the timer but still set a par time so you get a beep.

[Sarge]

I looked up the DAA Shotmaxx+. It's a wrist watch type device that will silently (in "spy mode") record your shots, which gives you a personal record of your run that you can review later. In this mode it doesn't emit a beep, so it wouldn't interfere with the official shot timer. I guess that wouldn't provide an advantage during the run (no "reminders"), but you have to remember to turn it on, like a hat cam, so it's another thing to think about.

You can use spy mode to start the timer but still set a par time so you get a beep.

And this would cause problems for me. when your watch beeps the RO would want to start issuing range commands, then his beeps then there is confusion. And let me guess, the guy with the watch would want a reshoot.

[peterthefish]

Most par time stages use an amplified timer, no? I can't see an RO confusing a watch beep, even a loud one, for that.

If not, then letting the RO know that you are setting a timer short of par would be polite I suppose.

Either way, if there's no rule against it...

[teros135]

Is this an actual practice anywhere? Has anyone actually seen a shooter using a timer that beeps during his own COF?

I hear what Sarge is saying. If there's an extraneous beep, regardless of it's sound, it's a distraction to both shooter and RO. The RO is the one who gets to issue the beep ("start signal"). The rule book doesn't say anywhere that the shooter gets to issue a beep (and please don't fall back to the straw man argument that "it doesn't say s/he can't", so it must be okay - this is a new use of technology that someone just thought of).

I've seen "beep interference" a couple of times, although not with the Shotmaxx. At a LII somebody turned on a camera during "stand by" and when it beeped the shooter and RO both visibly reacted. The camera beep wasn't the same as the timer and was softer, but a beep is what both shooter and RO were waiting for. Yes, the RO is controlling when his timer beeps, but it's his own beep he's waiting for.

Also, an RO stopped a shooter and did a reshoot because the timer was set with a par time and beeped a second time several seconds into the run. The shooter had noticed it and was distracted, as was the RO. The safety and fairness principles were in play.

Edited June 27, 2015 by teros135

[Sarge]

Most par time stages use an amplified timer, no?

Not the ones I have shot. Just a hand held timer.

[peterthefish]

Is this an actual practice anywhere? Has anyone actually seen a shooter using a timer that beeps during his own COF?

I've never seen it, and as mentioned above, I don't see it giving any real competitive advantage.

I hear what Sarge is saying. If there's an extraneous beep, regardless of it's sound, it's a distraction to both shooter and RO. The RO is the one who gets to issue the beep ("start signal"). The rule book doesn't say anywhere that the shooter gets to issue a beep (and please don't fall back to the straw man argument that "it doesn't say s/he can't", so it must be okay - this is a new use of technology that someone just thought of).

It's not a straw-man, that's the way the rule book works. What happened the first time someone strapped a red-dot on a gun at an IPSC match?

I've seen "beep interference" a couple of times, although not with the Shotmaxx. At a LII somebody turned on a camera during "stand by" and when it beeped the shooter and RO both visibly reacted. The camera beep wasn't the same as the timer and was softer, but a beep is what both shooter and RO were waiting for. Yes, the RO is controlling when his timer beeps, but it's his own beep he's waiting for.

In this case, the shooter controls the beep. Alerting the RO it was coming be polite, but I can't see a shooter successfully claiming interference if they caused the beep.

Also, an RO stopped a shooter and did a reshoot because the timer was set with a par time and beeped a second time several seconds into the run. The shooter had noticed it and was distracted, as was the RO. The safety and fairness principles were in play.

If the shooter is triggering a pre-par beep I don't think they have any grounds to claim distraction. If the RO is not alerted and interferes than a reshoot may be appropriate, but is as likely to hurt as help if you were having a great run. Hence alerting an RO.

[teros135]

So, peterthefish, are you advocating for shooters to use their own timer (which beeps) and simply notify the RO that they're going to do so?

If so, then somebody who might want to have a second timer on the run (say to verify what the RO has or to have a record of their splits and transitions) could simply notify the RO that they're going to have a friend stand behind the RO with a second timer, set on "instant", and hit their buzzer when the RO's timer beeps, then follow the shooter around and record his stage (this could be done at a respectful distance from the RO with a sensitive timer). The RO is advised and everyone is happy. The book doesn't say they can't. (Can't imagine, though...)

Is this where "it doesn't say we can't" can go?

[peterthefish]

So, peterthefish, are you advocating for shooters to use their own timer (which beeps) and simply notify the RO that they're going to do so?

I'm saying that if someone wants to use a Shotmaxx to get an alert that par-time is expiring soon, I don't see a rule against it. Same as if you used your cheesy Timex to do the same thing.

I can't see a competitive advantage from it, but..:

If so, then somebody who might want to have a second timer on the run (say to verify what the RO has or to have a record of their splits and transitions) could simply notify the RO that they're going to have a friend stand behind the RO with a second timer, set on "instant", and hit their buzzer when the RO's timer beeps, then follow the shooter around and record his stage (this could be done at a respectful distance from the RO with a sensitive timer). The RO is advised and everyone is happy. The book doesn't say they can't. (Can't imagine, though...)

Is this where "it doesn't say we can't" can go?

8.6.1, 8.6.2... 8.7.3 if the RO doesn't want your buddy following him. And why not - I run my Shotmaxx during runs. Mostly so I can analyze my own draw / splits / reloads, but since video evidence isn't used, might be nice if you got +2d. For that matter, not so different from using a camera is it, other than the instant time feedback.

Nonetheless this has gotten far off track from OPs inquiry of getting an alert during a long par time stage.

Edited June 27, 2015 by peterthefish

[Gary Stevens]

When I shot high power rifle standard equipment was a countdown timer for the 20 shots in 20 minutes stage. It was like an egg timer and was mainly used to maintain a rhythm. Only beeped at the end of the time.

My main concern with the OP question would be interference with another shooter.

[Petshopshooter]

I can see it being an advantage but not for the better shooters and really for 3-gun only. Middle of the road guy on a long stage finishing with long rifle targets. His timer goes off 10 seconds before par time and he engages everything he didn't hit avoiding a bunch of FTE penalties.