Sandbagger123 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 We shot it yesterday and there was some debate on how to start. it list heals on marks. i wanted to start heals on marks but at an angle. the RO said one has to be facing downrange square . So which is the correct way https://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/09-10.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 It doesn't use the words "facing down range", so you were correct in what you wanted to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKenny Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I would agree but then read the rules which states: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this) Then in the glossary it lists Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing straight towards the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop. Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange. based on the above it would seem that the RO is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I would say it did specify when it said heels on marks. If it had said standing in box I would agree the default position would apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I would agree but then read the rules which states: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this) Then in the glossary it lists Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing straight towards the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop. Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange. based on the above it would seem that the RO is correct. Nicely done Kenny. Good to see that some folks can take the time to read the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 If it said "facing downrange, heels on marks", then the RO would have a better case. Personally, I don't think that specifying a heels/toes on marks position invalidates 8.2.2, but I'll defer to those with more high-level match experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 It doesn't use the words "facing down range", so you were correct in what you wanted to do. Gary is correct, as always. It has to specify "facing down range" (or uprange) in order to enforce the feet and face position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayohee Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I would agree but then read the rules which states: 8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this) Then in the glossary it lists Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing straight towards the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop. Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange. based on the above it would seem that the RO is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 It doesn't use the words "facing down range", so you were correct in what you wanted to do. Gary is correct, as always. It has to specify "facing down range" (or uprange) in order to enforce the feet and face position. this is what i have understood it to be. i had 2 CRO's on my squad and their opinions were opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 8.2.2: The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides I was recently emailing with Troy asking him a few questions including one on 8.2.2 and whether if the WSB states anything regarding the start position (such as heels on X's) does that invalidate all of the default start position in 8.2.2, this is his response: "Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo. That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used." So the RO was incorrect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKenny Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Learned something new. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 8.2.2: The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides I was recently emailing with Troy asking him a few questions including one on 8.2.2 and whether if the WSB states anything regarding the start position (such as heels on X's) does that invalidate all of the default start position in 8.2.2, this is his response: "Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo. That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used." So the RO was incorrect They need to change the wording on that rule. It confuses a lot of folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 It does, but it shouldn't. Because an exact position in the shooting area IS specified, that means the sentence starting "Unless otherwise specified" is null and void, because the stage designer should have stated what the competitor's body position is. Most people assume that because people have to write "Standing in the shooting area, toes/heels on marks, facing uprange" to get someone facing uprange that it's the opposite of saying nothing and nothing is downrange. That is untrue. If a stage designer wanted to allow any body position, they could write "standing in the shooting area, toes on marks, facing away from the targets/in some specific direction without using the word 'uprange'" to do so. "Uprange" and "downrange" specify both a body position and orientation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 It doesn't use the words "facing down range", so you were correct in what you wanted to do.Gary is correct, as always. It has to specify "facing down range" (or uprange) in order to enforce the feet and face position. Well, not always:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 8.2.2: The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides I was recently emailing with Troy asking him a few questions including one on 8.2.2 and whether if the WSB states anything regarding the start position (such as heels on X's) does that invalidate all of the default start position in 8.2.2, this is his response: "Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo. That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used." So the RO was incorrect wait, why is it important? It's only important if you have something specific you want shooters to do. If you want to let them solve the problem their own way, then specify what you need to specify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 They need to change the wording on that rule. It confuses a lot of folks. Yeah it does and this question in some form seems to get asked here every few months so I figured I'd get the real answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 8.2.2: The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides I was recently emailing with Troy asking him a few questions including one on 8.2.2 and whether if the WSB states anything regarding the start position (such as heels on X's) does that invalidate all of the default start position in 8.2.2, this is his response: "Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo. That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used." So the RO was incorrect wait, why is it important? It's only important if you have something specific you want shooters to do. If you want to let them solve the problem their own way, then specify what you need to specify. Isn't that what Troy was saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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