Classifier 09-10 start position

[Sandbagger123]

We shot it yesterday and there was some debate on how to start. it list heals on marks. i wanted to start heals on marks but at an angle. the RO said one has to be facing downrange square .

So which is the correct way

https://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/09-10.pdf

[Gary Stevens]

It doesn't use the words "facing down range", so you were correct in what you wanted to do.

[theKenny]

I would agree but then read the rules which states:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing.

Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this)

Then in the glossary it lists

Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing straight towards the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop.

Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange.

based on the above it would seem that the RO is correct.

[Gary Stevens]

I would say it did specify when it said heels on marks. If it had said standing in box I would agree the default position would apply.

[Pat Miles]

I would agree but then read the rules which states:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing.

Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this)

Then in the glossary it lists

Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing straight towards the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop.

Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange.

based on the above it would seem that the RO is correct.

Nicely done Kenny. Good to see that some folks can take the time to read the rule book.

[teros135]

If it said "facing downrange, heels on marks", then the RO would have a better case.

Personally, I don't think that specifying a heels/toes on marks position invalidates 8.2.2, but I'll defer to those with more high-level match experience.

[gng4life]

It doesn't use the words "facing down range", so you were correct in what you wanted to do.

Gary is correct, as always. It has to specify "facing down range" (or uprange) in order to enforce the feet and face position.

[Jayohee]

I would agree but then read the rules which states:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing.

Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this)

Then in the glossary it lists

Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing straight towards the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop.

Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange.

based on the above it would seem that the RO is correct.

[Sandbagger123]

It doesn't use the words "facing down range", so you were correct in what you wanted to do.

Gary is correct, as always. It has to specify "facing down range" (or uprange) in order to enforce the feet and face position.

this is what i have understood it to be. i had 2 CRO's on my squad and their opinions were opposite.

[Southpaw]

8.2.2: The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides

I was recently emailing with Troy asking him a few questions including one on 8.2.2 and whether if the WSB states anything regarding the start position (such as heels on X's) does that invalidate all of the default start position in 8.2.2, this is his response:

"Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo. That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used."

So the RO was incorrect

[theKenny]

Learned something new. Thanks

[ktm300]

8.2.2: The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides

I was recently emailing with Troy asking him a few questions including one on 8.2.2 and whether if the WSB states anything regarding the start position (such as heels on X's) does that invalidate all of the default start position in 8.2.2, this is his response:

"Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo. That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used."

So the RO was incorrect

They need to change the wording on that rule. It confuses a lot of folks.

[frag316]

It does, but it shouldn't. Because an exact position in the shooting area IS specified, that means the sentence starting "Unless otherwise specified" is null and void, because the stage designer should have stated what the competitor's body position is. Most people assume that because people have to write "Standing in the shooting area, toes/heels on marks, facing uprange" to get someone facing uprange that it's the opposite of saying nothing and nothing is downrange. That is untrue. If a stage designer wanted to allow any body position, they could write "standing in the shooting area, toes on marks, facing away from the targets/in some specific direction without using the word 'uprange'" to do so. "Uprange" and "downrange" specify both a body position and orientation.

[Gary Stevens]

It doesn't use the words "facing down range", so you were correct in what you wanted to do.

Gary is correct, as always. It has to specify "facing down range" (or uprange) in order to enforce the feet and face position.

Well, not always:)

[motosapiens]

8.2.2: The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides

I was recently emailing with Troy asking him a few questions including one on 8.2.2 and whether if the WSB states anything regarding the start position (such as heels on X's) does that invalidate all of the default start position in 8.2.2, this is his response:

"Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo. That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used."

So the RO was incorrect

wait, why is it important? It's only important if you have something specific you want shooters to do. If you want to let them solve the problem their own way, then specify what you need to specify.

[Southpaw]

They need to change the wording on that rule. It confuses a lot of folks.

Yeah it does and this question in some form seems to get asked here every few months so I figured I'd get the real answer.

[gng4life]

8.2.2: The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides

I was recently emailing with Troy asking him a few questions including one on 8.2.2 and whether if the WSB states anything regarding the start position (such as heels on X's) does that invalidate all of the default start position in 8.2.2, this is his response:

"Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off. If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes. He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo. That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used."

So the RO was incorrect

wait, why is it important? It's only important if you have something specific you want shooters to do. If you want to let them solve the problem their own way, then specify what you need to specify.

Isn't that what Troy was saying?