Participation.....

[MikeFoley]

Zookeeper,

Thanks for your insight. I am so looking forward to your ICORE match at the end of the month. You are dead right about the GSSF, I know of one shooter that has been at our 3Gun match almost every month, that would never have been there unless he met us at the GSSF match and we invited him to shoot with us. I would like to see Revolver take off, and I think you and Sam and others are laying the groundwork for it.

[Headshot45]

I started shooting IPSC in 1979, and in the beginning would occassionally shoot one of my carry revolvers......I have been almost exclusively shooting IDPA since its inception, some of the time with a revolver, and probably will continue to do so....

The problem down here is not IPSC/USPSA per se, but the people at the club level....they look down on you for shooting a piece of junk since it didn't cost $2000, yet when you stick a reload(and sometimes it is faster than they did with their custom Whizbang Copperflamer rebuilt by Joey Supersquad) and top them on a stage or 2, they either 1. ooh and aah and want to see what that dinosauric contraption is that keeps the brass from flying into the RO's face, or 2. they step back from you as if you are some heretic, whispering to their friends about missing chickens and cats in the neighborhood that allowed you to do that voodoo that you do.

The people that shoot round guns stick together...we watch each other shoot, we help each other figure out COFs, we share tips, we actually enjoy each others company....well, except mine...I am an a**hole sometimes, but that is just my humor trying to rankle the club-types mentioned above...its a fun sport....anyway, thats how I see it.

In our home IDPA club, Tropical Sport Shooters Association, we have a bunch of guys who are buying revolvers because they see how much fun the few of us who do it on a regular basis have...they feel they are missing out.....they are, we already know that...so we help them with equipment, techniques, tips, and the thought that when we go to a match away from the home club, lets all show up with Hawaiian shirts and round guns and have fun.....and set up a grill and cook chickens!

Frank

www.tssa.net

p.s. we are thinking of holding a revolver only match down here in south Florida...any suggestions as to when?

[hopalong]

Frank,

The best time to hold a revolver match in Florida is WINTER TIME..... that way you get semi retired (for the winter) flat shooters too !!!! (and then we can laugh at them)

Thanks for the input.... More of what I am looking for (I think) It kind of Ticks me off when we get 5-7 Revo shooters at some of the IDPA monthly matches and can't get more than the occasional other Revo shooter a year in USPSA.

See Ya'll somewhere, sometime on a range

Hop

[Bubber]

Hop, After the ICORE match in T. Town, Arkansas we were discussing the aspects of why more revo shooters show up for a IDPA match. It is preetty much what Headshot45 mentioned. It seems the IDPA crowd encourages the Revo guy with acknowlegement of his shooting. In a large USPSA match doing well with a Revlover is like wetting your pants in a dark suit. It gives you a warm feeling, but no one notices. The way to get more revo shooters in matches is what you and actually all of us are doing. Get a friend to try it and encourage him with help and acknowlegement when he /or she does well. Do as Fort Smith does and have a Revolver Friendly Match once a year and challenge all to bring out their dust covered revo from the closet and bang and clang. And continue to support the shooting sports. Mike and Stephanie of Tontitown have just about got talked into traveling back down to particpate in a IDPA match in two weeks. Just what I need another reason to spend 3 hours on the road one way.

[pskys2]

All posts have good insite, but my .02 is it's the sizzle. Most who shoot IPSC have "hot dog" tendencies (myself included). We drive too fast, shoot too fast and I'm told talk too fast (at least before the brain is engaged). It's the seductive siren of speed. Most want to shoot a fast time, and it's easier with a bottom feeder. Combine it with courses that have fairly high miss factors (makeup shots required) leaving a Revo shooter standing and fumbling and it just "FEELS" better to be quicker reloading after missing that last plate with an auto than a Revo.

Part of this was the original concept of IPSC, everyone competes against everyone, heads up. That led me to worship at the shrine of the hicap, comped, scoped thunderstick. Then burn out led to downsizing, first Limited then Limited 10. Now it's Revo, but I ALWAYS loved shooting a Revo, it just wasn't competitive. I don't really care now, I'm not out to make a name, or earn bucks. Just have fun.

Now the solution?

We need to make it sizszle! For the average guy. How to do that I don't know.

Probalby start locally, maybe let a few shooters run through a course with a slicked up Revo.

Maybe we need a minimum Pull Weight, you know down to basics. Just got my 625 back from Randy Lee. Man the pull is unbelievalbe, it's going to give me a complex. I just know I can shoot faster now than I will be. I may have to jack the weight up, just for my sanity.

But then even the PC625 with a Lee Job is less than an off the shelf Kimber SS Competition model.

Sorry for the rambling, it's slow today.

Dave

[underlug]

My personal opinion is that there are not more revolver shooters in USPSA because the powers that be stack the rules against them, purposefully. While revolver, like they like to point out, "is only scored against revolver", auto people do not like being beat by revolvers head up. They like to have it both ways. Putting down the gun, and, then by the rules, making it impossible for the revolver to compete fairly. The last, most egregious, example is production. They allow 8 shot revolvers, then allow 9 shot arrays in the same stroke. Two or three 9 shot arrays will blow out any revolver near the top of the competition. Thus, Mr. Auto's fragile ego is protected from being beat by a revolver shooter. Also, the lack of a heads up list anymore similiarly protects those egos. Auto shooters are left in their own little dreamworld

[Jake Di Vita]

underlug,

Do you actually believe what you just said?

The powers at be stack rules against revolver huh?

So what would you like to see...6 round arrays (maybe 5 for the occasional bad shooter) with mandatory reloads in between for every stage?

I have no worries about being beaten by a revolver shooter...if I am, that means they are better than I am...no difference in being beaten by a revolver or a limited guy.

By the same token you could say they are unfair to production because they can only be scored minor.

[hopalong]

Jake,

Good to hear from you, I am looking for input from ANYBODY !

I am not defending Underlug at all.....

BUT

Even though the rules state otherwise !! from the revolver shooters side of the fence it sure looks like it...

Stage design allows UP to 9 per array now but notice it is UP TO !!!! it does not say "HAS TO" (Stage design has MUCHO to do with Entry level Revo shooters)

The biggest thing That I hear....from IDPA shooters of all Divisions....

is that IPSICK is for shooting those "Fancy Guns"

NOT that the Kimber I see at most of the matches is CHEAP (I can buy 2 625 for what they cost)

USPSA has done a TERRIBLE JOB of marketing themselves (Us shooters too) towards the general public and Thanks to MOST of the Gun Magazines for Bashing USPSA shooting in the past (None seem to want to do any different either) We (USPSA) now have a poor public perception and thus don't apeal to the guy off the street...

I am sure the Weekend Warriors at the local gunshop don't help much either when some new face comes in looking for something to shoot "IPSICK" with !!!!

When I started this particular thread I was looking for "Why Revolver shooters from other disciplines Don't shoot USPSA???" There are most likely many answers to this question but I want to see the most common and then work on them !!!!!!

For What it is Worth !!!

SAM

[Jake Di Vita]

Sam,

Well I'll do my best to answer your question.

I think a whole ton of it stems from ego.

In my opinion most of the reason why revolver shooters from other disciplines don't shoot USPSA (and this is actually true for all shooters) is because they don't want to look bad.

For the most part is it basically a fact USPSA is more difficult than IDPA (I can't speak for other revolver disciplines because I don't know much about them...I'll refer a buddy to this thread who does know more about it).

I'm not saying USPSA is more difficult because of the rules....every division has to deal with rules, I think it is more difficult because of what is demanded from the shooter. Fact is, now-a-days most people could not make a 15 yard head shot.

Of course there are other reasons. We'll have people that won't want to do it for the number of rounds required. Some will say people aren't friendly to revolver shooters. Some will say the division gets overlooked. And this all may be true in one area or another.

At the same time we'll get the guys that believe USPSA hate revolver shooters and they are out to get them. Go figure, I doubt Jerry Miculek complains too much about how bad the rules are for revolver in USPSA...he spends his time shooting rather than complaining...and wins.

I do agree with what you said about stage design though. It does say up to 9 rounds...and most of the time when we actually encounter a GOOD field course there would be no need for a standing reload from any shooter...including revolver. Unfortulantly these stages are few and far between and I'm not blaming anyone for it. It is damn hard to design a stage like that that works from all angles, I know, I've tried.

Not too sure what else to say about it.

[Brent Chambers]

Hello everyone.

While I don't shoot much USPSA these days (fatherhood) I am a revolver fan and was really fired up when USPSA added the division.

What limited my interest was that I couldn't use what I had purchased the moment the divisions were announced- an 8 shot Model 27.

The good news was I got really into ICORE with this gun (and the race holster and so on I bought for it) and found that this was the best place to shoot revolver.

I did do a bit of USPSA with my 6.5" 610 that I normally use with 10mm cartridges for pins, and had a really good time. I think I was the first shooter in Michigan to pick up my Revolver classification. As much as I liked that 610, I always wanted to use the gun I was shooting ICORE with so quickly bored of USPSA revolver- it was too much like shooting IDPA revolver, which I was also into for a while.

USPSA screwed up, IMHO, when they thought Revolver was going to be an entry level division. I know that S&W had some influence on that, as they admitted it to me for an article I wrote for Front Sight. They should have catered to the revolver nuts (the ICORE crowd) instead of the phantom shooter with the old GP100 that didn't really turn out to shoot after all.

Just my thoughts-

Brent

[AikiDale]

I think the reason for not seeing more revolver shooters in USPSA is a matter of speed and psychology of the herd. Our format is geared to speed and speed is more fun when everyone else is also going fast. Just for comparison I looked up the times and scores from the stage I worked at the 2003 FGN. Stage winners scores:

Jerry shot this 95 point stage, which included a standing reload necessitated by stage design, in 17.32 seconds, 94 points, HF 5.4273 with a revolver.

TGO shooting production was 12.23 seconds for 89 points, HF 7.2772.

Todd, shooting L-10 scored 93 points in 11.76 seconds, HF 7.9082. The big difference was not in the speed of the shooting, Jerry had to make 4 reloads, one standing still for one round, then three more on the move. Rob and Todd had only to make one reload on the move.

When shooting revolver one is engaged in a lot more gun handling. If everyone else is doing the same thing I would guess it doesn't stand out as much as when you take 50% longer to run the same course as the other guys on your squad. We could have a flintlock division, it would be great fun but can you imagine how long it would take?

It is a matter of "when in Rome." The IDPA shooters could play our matches, wearing their vests, pieing the corners, reloading behind cover, shooting in tactical sequence or priority, shooting to slide lock and if we had a Tactical division for them we could all agree they were only shooting against other Tactical shooters but they would still appear to themselves and others outside the norm.

That said I think we could attract a few more revolver shooters if we had stages designed to be fun for them.

Since Zookeeper and I are merging the ICORE match with the Steel match this month I intend to shoot a round gun at both because it just looks like so much fun. I need to practice dividing by six until then....

I do have a technical question concerning the rules for shooting revolvers before this match. When you spin the revolver on your index finger before putting it back in the holster how do you avoid the DQ's for sweeping and breaking the 180?

[redmist10]

Now it's Revo, but I ALWAYS loved shooting a Revo, it just wasn't competitive.

I believe this is the crux of the situation. No one likes to lose or finish at the bottom. The average person can't compete with a revolver, for various reasons, and they switch to something they feel gives them more of an edge - like an auto with hi-caps -

Our format is geared to speed and speed is more fun when everyone else is also going fast.

Very true.

I do have a technical question concerning the rules for shooting revolvers before this match.  When you spin the revolver on your index finger before putting it back in the holster how do you avoid the DQ's for sweeping and breaking the 180?

You hope the RO is educated enough to know it is unloaded

Great post Jake. I also agree that the up to 9 rounds per array could screw a revolvers chance at a combined placing in a match as described by Underlug and Aikidale. That said, I firmly believe, as many revolver shooters, that we are competing for trophies between ourselves. Ultimately, I shoot against myself and my last match performance. I like to see myself improve (when it happens) and hopefully in doing so I will advance on the list of shooters in the combined scores.

The USPSA image that this is all about speed and impractical scenarios defeats participation more than anything else. IDPA markets itself differently to a different group of people. I think the recent interview with Mr. Gray in Front Sight says it very well. The "sins of the past" are still affecting the view of USPSA in the present. Revolver shooting is just an example of the overall situation - at least to me.

[D.carden]

To all,

All of the posts above have value to the individuals posting them. There reasons are there-own for shooting with or without revolvers, and need to be respected. I dont feel intimedated at all beatin-the-crap out of bottom feeders. On two classifier stages recently, I placed 3rd on each, losing only to a couple of the best Open shooters in the country (also forum members ). Field courses have a different out come obviously because of round count and reload positions but i have never come in last place, nor have i won a stage ( yet ). I will shoot REVO div till they drop-it from the adgenda altogether ( which will never happen cause i'll still show-up,LOL ). FWIW, I'm ok with competing against autos even outside of the divisions.

Good luck to all REVOS-or-not, see you at the range

Dan

[MikeFoley]

As I read this thread and the reasons for shooters maybe not shooting USPSA revolver, I am skeptical that anyone would stay away for those reasons, though I know they do. When I shoot USPSA revovler 8-10 times a year, I love it, it is great fun, and I am amazed at how well I can shoot it compared to my 48-50 times a year I shoot limited. Now I'm no Miculek, but I can hang pretty close to Zookeeper on stages and in the overall finish at local matches, and he shoots the wheelie primary.

The great fun I have is not accompanied by any feelings of dread for a high round count stage, nor do I fear that I might suck in the eyes of onlookers. As far as being competitive, when I shoot the wheelgun, I want to win, I want to do my best on every stage, just like with my other guns, but it never compare where I finish in relation to any semi-auto shooter, except my own limited run in the same match.

As for speed, most speed junkies should love the challenge of running a revovler in the red, but I know it only annoys them, and I think this is just ignorance or fear. It is harder to look like you know what you are doing with a wheelgun, but Jerry M doesn't have any trouble getting everyones attention.

While I am not naive that ego enters the picture, I am used to being surrounded by people with guts regardless of their ability, and maybe that is too much to expect from everyone.

Once again Sam, I know this post didn't help, so here's my idea:

"Shoot just like Jerry Miculek in three easy steps in just minutes twice per week. Buy now and we'll throw in some magic lube that allows your old revolver to increase it's speed up to 30 times. But wait, that's not all, for a limited time only while supplies last, we're giving you the secrets of the pros special edition. You will know what others have been keeping from you all along..."

[underlug]

Jake: I totally believe what I said. What don't you believe? That the rules as promulgated do not discriminate against revolvers? That someone approaching

USPSA will not immediately discern the same and choose not to shoot revolver? The only question is that of the rule framer's intent. USPSA has been a 1911 game since its inception. It has grown into a high cap game at present. I infer intent from the last production rule fiasco where 8 shot revolvers were allowed while at the same time allowing arrays of one shot more. It could have been an inadvertant act. But, coupled with the previous rules and the attitude I have personally experienced at Area One toward revolvers, I personally doubt it. But, you believe what you will. See the new USPSA classifiers? On most classifier stages, revolvers are mandated to "lose" to automatics heads up re hit factor. A rule that would require that no standing reloads be mandated on field courses could be implemented without impacting round counts on those stages. And returning classifiers to six round neutral would even things out during the course of the match. I realize I'm dreaming because revolvers are red headed step children to USPSA.

[cliffwalsh]

I know what the problem is: USPSA does not know they have a revolver division. This is a quote from the last Front Sight, page 5. "I am pleased to announce that USPSA and Para-Ordnance have reached an agreement for Para to produce a commemorative pistol bearing the USPSA logo. The pistol will recognize Todd Jarrett as the only person to win National Championships in all FOUR uspsa pistol divisions" Anyone want to guess which of the divisions is being ignored???

[hopalong]

Cliff,

A little Education here !!!!

Pistol = Self feeders/bottomfeeders/Autoblasters

REVOLVER = another type of HANDGUN but NOT a PISTOL !!!!

AND totaly another BEAST to be MASTERED !!!!

Clear as MUD ?????

HOP

[JohnRodriguez]

Cliff, USPSA "powers that be" do know that revolvers do exist, they just wish they/we would crawl under a rock. I wrote a letter when the new classifers came out several months ago and the reply I got when I had asked why they do not shoot revolvers to help support all the branches of USPSA was that they/he did indead shoot revolvers (many years ago) and had many trophies to prove it. I don't think the NRA action shooting (bianchi cup) really counts as revolver shooting since you get about 30 seconds to reload before the targets appear again to shoot the next string. I know i'll probably get stearn warning for that one, but ask me if i really care, I'll also foward you the e-mail to read for youself, if you don't believe it.

One last thing, I believe S&W is going to ask Doug K to shoot in Limited division at the IRC, I got this on a very reliable source. Why don't the rest the jam-o-matic crowd come out and give it try.

[Airedale]

Cliff,

Don't let Hoppy's stern technical lecture break your spirit! You know he's a strict disciplinarian.

I thought exactly the same thing when I read the article in Front Sight. I don't worry too much whether USPSA loves us or not.

I don't sweat the fairness of the classifiers as I really don't care whether I'm Z class or super secret AA. I do this for fun and stress relief.

Revolver will stay a division certainly as long as Jerry M. is pumping air. It would be crazy, marketing wise, for USPSA to kill the class that the fastest wheelgunner on earth rules.

Have fun and remember, Hoppy loves you.

Dave

[MikeFoley]

Airedale, you're not suposed to tell them about super secret AA! And can you imagine the guy sandbagging to stay in Z by closing his eyes.

[cliffwalsh]

Is that like double secret probation???

[cliffwalsh]

Sam, What does IDPA stand for?? I didn't know they only allowed autos...

[hopalong]

Cliff,,

I

D0

Practice

Accasionally !!!!!

SAM

[Airedale]

Cliff,

It is exactly like double secret probation.

You'll note Zookeeper has disappeared from his class top 20 list......he's now classified super secret.....I can't say

Shhh....

Dave

[8shooter]

HERE IN THE LAND DOWN UNDER, REVO'S ARE SNUBBED TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

AT THE 2004 IPSC NATIONALS WE MADE THE PHONE CALL THE WEEK EARLIER AND FOUND OUT THE WASN'T GOING TO BE A REGONIZED "REVOLVER" DIVISION. SO WE THOUGHT TO HELL WITH THEM .....

4 OF US TURNED UP WITH OUR OPEN REVOLVERS AND HAD TO FIGHT IT OUT WITH THE OPEN CLASS AUTO'S. FIGURED AS STOCK REVO WAS OUT MAY AS WELL USE THE OPEN REVO AND PRACTISE FOR THE IRC 2 MONTHS FOLLOWING.

THE IMPRESSION I RECEIVED FROM THE AUTO GUYS WHEN THEY SAW THE REVO IN THE HOLSTER WAS A " WHY DID YOU EVEN BOTHER" REACTION.

THEN THEY REALLY GOT THEIR NOSES OUT OF JOINT WHEN WE ALL FINISHED IN THE TOP 50 OVERALL.

THERE WERE A FEW EXCEPTIONS THAT THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT TO SEE REVOS OUT BEING USED, BUT THE OVERALL FEELING WASN'T GOOD.