Handling misfires when on the clock?

[collards]

I really blew two stages of my local match this month. Went home cursing my crappy ammo and hating REVO division, but on reflection I think it was due to poor planning on my part. IDPA match had two 12 round stages and on both stages I suffered a hard primer fail to fire.

On both of these stages, I did a reload and finished the stage, but today I'm thinking why the heck didn't I just take the -5 points down and be done with it? On one stage I am embarrased to say I actually cycled back through the cylinder to hit the primer again, then reloaded, then got back into the port I was shooting through to finish shooting the last shot for the stage. *bonk*

Obviously if you're shooting over a steel or trying to avoid a FTN or something you might have to reload, but if you've already got a shot on every target is it always going to be the smart play to take the -5 in these situations?

[alecmc]

Don't accept light strikes as an acceptable occurrence. Tighten up your main spring, and use federal primers

But , I think it's better just to go ahead and dump the clip and reload, if it didn't go bang the first time , it might not go bang the 2nd time either. Get rid of it and start fresh

Edited June 8, 2015 by alecmc

[racknrider]

In IDPA if you have ammo available and do not reload to fire the required number of shots it is an automatic FTDR -20. Rule 3.6.5

[afoulk]

Agree. Taking a miss in this situation earns the shooter an FTDR. There are a few instances where not firing the required number of shots can prove beneficial, but this isn't one of them.

Edited June 8, 2015 by afoulk

[pskys2]

But under the stress of the clock, nothing is simple. Don't be mad about you, just solve the light strike issue. We've all been there.

1 misfire in practice = at least 3 in a match.

[collards]

Light strikes are not a common occurrence, and I retrieved the round. My GP100 crushed that primer in something fierce but it just didn't go bang. Now, I am using Winchester primers and that's probably a mistake....

I wasn't aware of rule 3.6.5 applying in this situation. Let's say I leave a shooting position with only one shot on a target that needed 2. Would I have to go back to the previous position to finish the shoot?

Edited June 8, 2015 by collards

[GOF]

Failure to fire the required number of rounds in a COF, when ammo is available, is an automatic PE... unless they occurred on a disappearing target.

IF ammo was available, the misfire is not an acceptable excuse. The reload should have been made. The FTDR could easily come into play if you made mention of the fact that the D5 was less time than a reload.

Either way, some type of penalty is coming your way.

[racknrider]

I don't think so, you would get a PE for not following COF and down 5 for the shot you didn't take. I "believe" the intent of 3.6.5 is to force a reload for a 12 shot stage for SSP/ESP or shot 18 for CDP guys that would rather take the 2.5 second penalty plus points down than do a possibly longer reload and engagement.

Edited June 8, 2015 by racknrider

[Gregg K]

If you get down to that last target and come up short on ammo to finish because you had a misfire and choose to not reload when you had ammo on your belt you have an FTDR coming your way.

3.6.5 If the shooter has ammo remaining, not reloading an empty firearm to fire the last one or more rounds
in a stage is an automatic FTDR penalty.

You can put up $100 and arbitrate it on what you "believe" but the rule is clear and doesn't list any special situations or intent. The rule must be applied as written and not what someone believes or thinks about it. That would be a quick $100 down the drain.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Gregg K

[racknrider]

Allow me to clarify, my "belief" refers to the origination of the rule not application.

As stated above, in the OP's first scenario it is a FTDR and in the second scenario a PE plus points down.

[Gregg K]

Allow me to clarify, my "belief" refers to the origination of the rule not application.

Your are probably remembering this from the 2005 rulebook

CoF 11. On stages that have a minimum round count one (1)

round higher than the capacity of a competitors firearm,

emptying the firearm and failing to reload so as not to engage

the last shot in order to gain a competitive advantage will

result in an FTDR.

A lot of things have changed from the 2005 book and the way rules were inforced. It would be less confusing to me if I didn't have the previous 3 or 4 rulebooks stuck in my head since some of the stuff I remember doesn't exist anymore.

[collards]

Well what about this. If I am on a 12 round stage, can I just bring one speedloader? So in other words, walk up to the line with ONLY 12 rounds? Would the rule still apply?

[afoulk]

So in that situation, if you have a light strike you'd earn a procedural + miss =5.5 seconds. If you can't do better than that with ammo on your person, you should work on your reloads rather than your gamesmanship.

Where it would sometimes pay to accept misses are in portions of the stage with disappearing targets and surprise target engagements where you can save having to do tac loads or other tortured stage planning in order to be able to engage all targets with the required number of rounds.

For instance, if one is in cover with 5 rounds in their gun and the next 3 targets are in the open surprise targets to be engaged with 2 shots each on the way to the next cover position and the targets cannot be engaged from the next position of cover. Instead of doing the tac load before leaving cover, I'd choose to not reload and accept the single miss on the third surprise target every time.

[Gregg K]

Well what about this. If I am on a 12 round stage, can I just bring one speedloader? So in other words, walk up to the line with ONLY 12 rounds? Would the rule still apply?

Was this a deliberate attempt to circumvent a rule? Still may be looking at an FTDR if you look at the definition.

5.5 Failure To Do Right (FTDR)

Adds twenty (20) seconds to total score and is assessed for use of inappropriate devices and unfair actions. Note: The FTDR is intended to be used solely as a penalty for deliberate attempts on the part of the shooter to circumvent or violate the competition rules to gain a competitive advantage. It should not be assessed for inadvertent shooter errors, or in cases where it is obvious that the shooter gained no competitive advantage by their actions. In these cases, the shooter should be assessed a PE rather than an FTDR. All FTDRs must be approved by the MD

[collards]

Well nobody is intentionally trying to circumvent rules, I'm just going into the stage knowing it is a 12 shot stage and I don't want to shoot more than 12 shots. I haven't seen a rule anywhere that says you have to bring as much ammo as you can hold on your person.

[PatJones]

Federal primers are cheap insurance.

[RevoWood123]

Through my years of shooting revos, I can honestly say PatJones hit the nail on the head. I have used every other primer out there, and nothing beats a Federal for a revolver. I used to buy cases of the AE38B 158gr LRN loaded ammo for ICORE prior to reloading, always worked. I started loading, and started having issues, until I went back to Federal primers. I bought some RWS match 158gr LRN, my J-frame 640, model 64, and 686 couldn't fire those things. I think their primers are made of tungsten...

[pskys2]

Even Federals aren't fool proof, I found 1 in my last flat that had the anvil reversed and 1 had the anvil cocked and the cup bent. All fresh from the flat/100 pack. I don't use an automated primer loader. I found both while using the flip tray. I've had it happen before and always glance over the primers before flipping to load into the tube.

Even found an anvil flipped in a Flat of Federal Small Pistol Match Primers a few years back.

But when there are no issues like that, they are the most reliable of the primers.

Edited June 9, 2015 by pskys2

[collards]

Color me convinced. Federal it is! I mean as I said above too, there was a massive dent in these misfired primers so I am hesitant to go tightening up my springs.

Edited June 10, 2015 by collards

[RevoWood123]

pskys2, I agree with you, a bad primer will be a bad primer, and everybody makes a couple. I do exactly what you said, use the primer tray flip them, inspect, load the primer tubes. I have seen, and have had happen to me, when missing something very simple (boogered primer, failure to drop powder, lube ring missing from the bullet) what can happen during a match. One of our guys still gets called Squib even though he hasn't had an occurrence in years. Anymore, all brass, primers, and bullets are inspected before they make it to the press, and powder checker dies are very helpful.

[Shadowrider]

Can't ever remember having a dud Winchester primer. That said I use Federal pretty much exclusively for all divisions and calibers just to keep things as simple as I can. But I do have a flat of Winchester as backup.

1) Federal

2) Winchester (only for when you can't get Federal)

In that order...

[Para super]

Another possibility to what may have happened. It has happened to me.

While reloading and depriming the spent primer sticks on the depriming rod and gets reseated.

I have also had some get wet and not go bang.

[Carmoney]

Don't spend too much time thinking about "bad primers." They are extraordinarily rare, something even serious shooters will see only once or twice in a lifetime.

[goldfieldshooter]

Used Federals since 1992; about 15000 a year and never had a bad one. UNTIL 2012 Bianchi Cup, first match,Falling Plates, second run, second plate, Click!!!!

$US 6000 trip down the dunny. No compound in the primer. I was one of three competitors that year it happened to. One poor s*d had two.

That was an Auto but for a revolver I would not use anything else.

Flip tray, a good light and a magnifying glass for all match loads. That light green compounds is hard to see but an empty one is not hard to miss.

[pskys2]

I noticed it starting in the first primer drought. My guess is they're pumping them out asap, and a few get by.

I've seen 5 that I've caught before reloading them in my lifetime (2 were in flats of Match) and I've been reloading since 1973, and all have been since 2000.

Though in that time I wondered if some of the misfires in my revolver and autos might not have been some I missed? Especially those odd ones that seem to come from nowhere and don't happen again for several thousand rounds, if ever. I just never wanted to pull the bullet on one after it misfires.

If you use a flip tray and look at the primers before flipping to load in a tube, it's not hard to spot an odd one. It seems to me the green compound stands out fairly well to my eyes.

Edited June 14, 2015 by pskys2