Dave Sevigny and his shooting style

[Pierruiggi]

I read in another thread in the Stock/Limited section of the forum about how forum member Clay1 mentioned his attention was directed at the way Dave shoots his Glocks "stiff armed".

I noticed this too.

He places his left elbow pointing to the side rather than at a downwards angle and his arm seems to be almost fully extended.

I noticed that in his page he has a link to D.R. Middlebrooks website and I also saw some pictures of him (Dave) with D.R. and one of Mr. Middlebrooks students, Daniel Horner.

D.R. Middlebrooks, as most of you must know developed a shooting style he named FIST-FIRE. One of this system's positions/stances is one he calls "reverse Chapman", where the support arm is straight (or almost straight) and the strong arm is more bent.

Now, does Dave uses FIST-FIRE or modified his technique using parts of this system?

Disclaimer: If I said something obviously erroneous, please don't go hard on me. I don't know much about neither FIST-FIRE, nor Mr. Middlebrooks, nor Dave. Just asking questions here...

[Duane Thomas]

I'm sure that if DRM had taught a shooter of Dave Sevigny's accomplishments how to shoot, if Sevigny used his system, DRM would not be shy about mentioning the fact. Thus your inquiry wouldn't be necessary. Nor would Dave, a class act about giving credit where it's due if ever there was one, have failed to mention it himself. It seems more likely to me that DRM brought Dave in to teach a class, once or more often. Having a well-known shooter/instructor teach a class at an established school's home base is an old and respected practice. The "star" shooter's name is a draw, and this allows a school's students to be exposed to different ideas and techniques. Even students who haven't already attended a particular school might be lured by a famous name they particularly admire.

[Paul Sharp]

Why not e-mail Dave and ask him?

That would be simple enough and get around the issues that cloud..., like agendas and opinion.

I've talked to DRM while Dave was there and after, Dave also posts on DRM's forum, so you might ask there.

I do know Dave was NOT at DRM's place to teach a class. I do know that DRM said that Dave has incredible hand-to-eye coordination, hardcore work ethic and a strong desire to always improve.

Other than that, I can't comment...., 'cause I don't know and I'm not afraid to admit it.

[Paladin]

Dave's elbow position is not unique. Different shooters place their elbow position differently. Dave's position will cause more recoil to come into his shoulders but he handles it from that end pretty well I think..other shooters break at the elbow and this kills the recoil there.. try them out and see what works for you!!

For me once I get into any sort of grip that 'locks' out I am going to get tense and tie up..so I work with the bent elbow, dropped shoulders, medium strength grip..total relaxation in the index and stance..and of course I shoot a heavier gun better..

I am sorry not aware of the Fist-fire method so can't comment..

[eerw]

Dave S. looks like he shootes with his arms fully extended and both elbows locked out . Nothing new there..but different as most shooters seem to shoot somwhere in between the weaver style of arm positioning and the isosolece (sp??) .

goes to show that you develop what works for you ...what is right for one is not right for another...and to keep experimenting with techiques..to find what does work for you..

[Pierruiggi]

Gimme a break Duane! I wrote that while I was at a 24 hours non-sleep period, so things weren't 100% clear in my mind.

All that I'm saying is that I noticed that Dave appears to have a particular style (I've seen people shoot with nearly locked out arms, but no "top dawgs") that appears to have resemblances with DRM's FIST-FIRE.

I'll go sleep now.

[Clay1]

Pierruiggi, thanks for asking the question. Even though we both noticed the obvious differences in shooting style, I think that we both can agree that the others in the top all shot with bent elbows to one degree or another. I was just surprised that Dave Sevigny shot with very locked elbows. Old saying about there is more than one way to skin a cat, applies here.

I've also studied shotgun disciplines. And while observing stances, I noticed (who couldn't notice) that one particular olympic champion had such a crouch to his stance that is was very abnormal compared to others, but the man could shoot. Duane Thomas in another thread said that many times we look at a shooter who is shooting extremely well and we want to critic his form. The point isn't the form but rather that he is accomplishing his intended task - hitting the target.

Now the real question comes up. What's going to work for me? How can I see improvement and can the improvement be sustainable and repeatable. For arm position for most of us, I think that the bent elbow iso lends itself best to the majority of the shooters and so that is where I will concentrate my focus. Different ways to do things can obviously work for others.

[mark dye]

I'd love to hear Dave's take on this thread. I have had several occasions to watch Sevigny shoot... last year at a couple of major matches, at club matches in Georgia, last weekend at the Fla. Open, and last night on Shooting USA on OLN. I noticed as you did that he extends his elbows further than most, making his stance look more rigid. He also seemed to have his elbows on pretty much the same plane as the gun (as opposed to below the gun). I also noticed that he pulls the gun just a bit when shooting on the move (I assume to help absorb some of the "bounce" from his steps). Whatever he does, it obviously works very well for him!!! I feel sure that amazing hand/eye coordination, strong work ethic and incredible trigger control are David Sevigny's REAL secrets to his success. That being said... you can bet that I'll be trying that stance in my next practice sesssion!

If we are going to discuss an unusual shooting stance, let's talk about that Japanese guy who is so great at the Steel Challenge ( I think his name is Tetsu Sakai). His elbows are almost straight down and the gun only six inches or so in front of his face.

[chp5]

It's impossible to lock your arms with your elbows pointed out - the way Dave shoots.

Try it for yourself: hit your index and and then turn your elbows out. The effect of turning your elbows out is to unlock your arms.

[Singlestack]

I agree with Cy. I used to shoot elbows locked and I pointed to DS every time somebody said I should unlock them.

Then I talked to Dave. He does not lock his elbows.

[et45]

The first time I saw a picture of Tetsu Sakai shooting I thought I was seeing a ghost.That is the same stance that was used by David Manning a Master class shooter of some note back in the 80s.

[ChristopherG]

If I hold a Glock out with my elbows in the same (slightly bent downward) position I use to shoot, e.g., a wheelgun, it naturally points somewhere well above my target. If I raise my elbows outward, without further extending my arms or locking my elbows, the sight drops into place. I assume it works basically this way for everyone?

It's a matter of gun/shooter fit, and DS has obviously figured out how to combine his own body geometry and the Glock's better than anyone else. The fact that his elbows are bent outward rather than downward is what produces the illusion they're locked. I think.

[Duane Thomas]

The fact that his elbows are bent outward rather than downward is what produces the illusion they're locked. I think.

I mentioned this in another thread, but about a year ago I was interviewing Dave Sevigny for an article in the Glock Annual (paid for but sadly never published), and he said of his technique, "I shoot with both arms bent. It may look from the side like I have my arms straight, but if you were to look at it from the top, it looks like a big hug." That's a paraphrase but it's pretty darn close.

[MBaban]

I stole this from his site. At this position, it looks like it is bent.

[reneet]

It's impossible to lock your arms with your elbows pointed out - the way Dave shoots. 

Try it for yourself:  hit your index and and then turn your elbows out.  The effect of turning your elbows out is to unlock your arms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Am I the only one capable of locking my arms with elbows pointed out or down?

[Jasonub]

your special reneet. I could bend my thumb backwards and touch my wrist

[pisgahrifle]

It's impossible to lock your arms with your elbows pointed out - the way Dave shoots. 

Try it for yourself:  hit your index and and then turn your elbows out.  The effect of turning your elbows out is to unlock your arms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Am I the only one capable of locking my arms with elbows pointed out or down?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope, Me to. Gifted joints?

[Mistral404]

One way to help put things into perspective is to measure:

1. measure the length of the gun, this will help with the conversion factor

2. measure the distance from the back of the gun to the nose of the shooter

If the elbows are locked, the distance might be around 19-20 inches

If the elbows are really bent, then the distance might be around 9-10 inches.

Limited shooters seems to have their elbows more bent than Open shooter in my limited exposure to various shooting styles.

[Loves2Shoot]

Not at all locked out, I bend them much more shooting open. It has to do with the distance of the sight off the bore more than anything else for me.

[Duane Thomas]

If the elbows are locked, the distance might be around 19-20 inches

If the elbows are really bent, then the distance might be around 9-10 inches.

There's no way a slight elbow bend is going to move the gun 10 inches closer to your face. 1-2 inches, maybe.

[Mistral404]

Not sure what you meant by your comment, Duane.

I do not know how really bent got translated to slight elbow bend.

My intent was to help people figure a way to actually measure the distance of the gun to the nose and conclude how much bend there was in the elbow. More bend typically means the gun is closer.

[Duane Thomas]

I meant that the sort of slight elbow bend we're talking about here (see the photos of Dave Sevigny and dirtypool40) will not bring the gun back toward the face very much at all, certainly not ten inches worth. But then I do note that dp40's photo wasn't posted until after your original comment, and you did say a ten-inch differential would be with elbows "really bent." No doubt!

[drbones]

The function of pointing the elbows out to the sides, as oppossed to down, gives a biomechanical advantage to pressing the hands together trapping the grip between them. From my understanding of FIST-Fire, the reverse Chapman arm position facilitates the forward wrist lock position of the non-dominant hand, allowing muzzle rise to be significantly reduced. If you notice the pictures of DS shooting, his left arm is slightly straighter than his right.

[shred]

If you notice the pictures of DS shooting, his left arm is slightly straighter than his right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This could just be because his left hand is slightly forwards of his right hand and he's trying to maintain a nice isocelese position. Without asking him directly, a static picture doesn't tell much.

[ReelFowlBuck]

It may appear that way because of his left eye dominancy.